Peace Pilgrim in Whittier January 13, 1979

This informal and wide ranging conversation took place it the backyard of John and Ann Rush.  In it Peace speaks and answers questions about some subjects not usually discussed in her more formal talks.

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Peace: "Okay, fine. Who wants to pose some questions for Peace?"

Ann Rush: "Well, I have a question which came to me when you were talking about purification of thought. I would like to hear you to discuss when people become aware of the evils of the world - starvation, war and pollution - those people, those very concerned people... You know, it is not easy to not be overcome with that concern, and that versus the very religious positive thinking people who are not so aware of that but they have this positive attitude - I mean I think we felt it in the Religious Science church the other night where you spoke here in Whittier."

Peace: "They had a beautiful positive attitude....(laugh)

Ann Rush: "Beautiful. Beautiful positive attitude. But, you know, I have heard criticism of that church, that people, if...if they think good, and do good, right thoughts, well then they'll materially be really very well off."

Peace: "The immature would believe that. Yes, Ann."

Ann: "So I'd just... you know, like... What about those of us who are so aware of the... you know we have magazines, progressive magazines, and FOR, and all the magazines that tell us about all of the world's ills and it seems as though, you know..."

Peace: "Well, Ann, in the first place I think we should put those things into proper perspective. The cause of all of our difficulties is immaturity. If we were people who had done a full growing up, not only the mental and emotional but of course the spiritual growing up, we wouldn't have these difficulties. We would have learned our lesson of sharing, we would have learned our lesson of non-killing, and all these difficulties wouldn't exist, you see. So, therefore, this is the basic cause of all of our difficulties. And don't be concerned about the people that have positive thoughts for a wrong motive; remember the motive has to be right or else it isn't going to do them any good."

Ann: "In the long run..."

Peace: "So, they'll have to learn right motive eventually; it is just something they haven't learned yet, but they'll will have to before their lives can come into harmony. Now, these...this immaturity which the world suffers from manifests, of course, in things like greed, grabbing more than your share. In things like fear, which cause us to build up armaments against one another, these are the direct symptoms of our immaturity - things like greed and fear. Now, there are symptoms of symptoms. War is really a symptom of a symptom. It is the symptom of the fear which causes us to build up the armaments which results in war, you see. Starvation is certainly a symptom of a symptom. It is a symptom of the greed, you see, which causes some to grab more than their share while others are starving, and so the level at which most human beings are able to work is the level of the symptoms of the symptoms - and that is where they usually work. Now, I am not saying that it is wrong for them to work there, because sometimes a symptom is so acute or even the symptom of a symptom is so acute, that if we don't do something about it we will not survive to do something about the cause. But I am saying they should be put into their proper perspective, you see."

Ann: "I suppose it is something like during the Viet Nam war. I was... I was so overcome with concern about that, but when I was totally involved in working against that then I was... I was perfectly happy. I mean I had concern but I was...I was fulfilled in working against that war."

Peace: "Oh yes, when you lose yourself in a cause larger than yourself you definitely find spiritual growth; there is no doubt about that. And, of course, I do think one comment should be made here - I always said if we are going to have some kind of a vigil in connection with the war, let it be for peace, let it be on the positive side for peace, you see, not against something, but for something. You have much more power when you are working for the right thing than when you are working against the wrong thing. And, of course, if the right thing is established the wrong thing will fade away of its own accord because all things that out of harmony contain within themselves the seeds of their own destruction. Eventually they will be destroyed. It is really only how soon; that is up to us."

Webster Cotton: "Peace! Don't people get caught up...quite often get caught up in causes as a way of escaping from dealing with them...with themselves."

Peace: "Some do..."

Webster Cotton: "Uh huh..."

Peace: "You will find some even in the cause of peace..."

Webster Cotton: "Uh huh..."

Peace: "...that have not yet made peace with themselves and certainly not with their families."

Webster Cotton: "This was my impression that many people in the peace movement were running away from their own selves, and were very angry and very hostile..."

Peace: "Some were."

Webster Cotton: "...and very negative."

Peace: "Yes; this is inevitable. Especially when a cause gets as large as the cause of peace got at the time just before the people of this country, not the government, but the people stopped that war in Viet Nam."

Webster Cotton: "Uh huh."

Peace: "Now, it is really a wonderful thing to be able to say that no one was ever killed or seriously injured by any peace demonstrator. But, of course, there was psychological violence used."

Webster Cotton: "Uh huh."

Peace: "Calling police 'pigs', for instance."

Webster Cotton: "Sure, sure."

Peace: "Why, this is the most terrible form of psychology because if you call a man a pig he is apt to act like a pig, and some of them did. Now, the other thing they did was to use violence against property. They broke windows and burned down buildings, and this had the effect of turning thousands of people away from the peace movement..."

Webster Cotton: "Uh huh."

Peace: "I believe that if they had been able to refrain from psychological violence and violence against property, as well as the physical violence, the war in Viet Nam might have ended a good deal sooner. But, it is quite inevitable, of course, that you will find this in any movement that gets fairly large. Now, I can remember toward the end of the war in Viet Nam, I was asked to lead a peace march and... It was the college students that asked me. They showed me their discipline, and it said if somebody says something mean to you, say nothing; if somebody hits you, do nothing. And I said 'Well, it couldn't be more peaceful, so I'll lead it.", and I suggested that we sing the positive words to the songs and that it be for peace, you see, and they were willing to go along with that. And we came into the plaza at the Federal Building, two or three thousand strong, where we had a permit to have some speeches. And on the steps of the Federal Building were two or three dozen counter-demonstrators, a pitiful little handful. So, when I got up to speak I thanked all those beautiful people who had walked with me, and I noticed they weren't all college students - some of them had silver hair. And then I turned to that pitiful little handful on the steps of the Federal Building, and I said 'I thank you for coming out too because this is so symbolic - the vast majority standing up for peace, and the small minority standing up against them.' And you know, one of the young men from the steps came over to me afterward and he said 'I haven't come to argue with you, I just want to tell you that I realize today that you are on the popular side.'. I said 'You bet we are, and if you want to be on the popular side you better come over here and stand with us.', and this is exactly what happens. You see, so many people never make up their own minds about anything; if war is popular, they are for war ; if peace is popular, they are for peace. And all of a sudden, everybody started to climb on the peace bandwagon and the people gained enough power to stop the war in Viet Nam."

Webster Cotton: "Uh huh."

Peace: "So you see, Web, actually, while you deal with difficult forces when you deal with great numbers of people, in some cases it takes great numbers of people to accomplish a purpose."

Webster Cotton: "Sure."

Peace: "How about some more..."

John Rush: "I'd like to..."

Peace: "Yes, John?"

John Rush: "You have attained inner peace and perfect health and no one else I know of has done that. You give the steps for doing that sort of thing, relinquishments and so forth. Others are aware, mostly, or other spiritual seekers are aware of basically those things. If you read the spiritual writings of people in the past they say essentially the same thing. You say it in a different way; yet people are constantly feeling they are weak and they are lacking, haven't gotten very far. Why is it they don't? Is it because they don't follow what they read and don't practice what they know? Are you the only one who has practiced what they learned? all these others haven't?"

Ann: "You mean 'we', don't you?"

Peace: "Uh huh."

John Rush: "Why don't we"

John Rush: "Yeah; well, why don't we practice what we know? Are we... It seems strange that you are the only one that I know of who has found inner peace and perfect health."

Peace: "Well, John, there have been people in the past, and not only that but I personally have met people who have found inner peace. So that actually, this is not something which is impossible to find, and this is not something which is just for me. I have also met quite a few people who have started along the spiritual path. And when I started out, of course, there was very little interest in the inner search. But now there is a great interest in the inner search and, as a result, there are many people who have made a start along the spiritual path. So perhaps when some of these young folks I talk to are as old as I am there will be a great many more who have done this growing."

"And then I think this should be said - how much you can understand this depends partly upon how wide your horizons are. You see, if you believe that life begins with the earth life, that the soul which inhabits the body was created to inhabit this particular earth body, it is a little more difficult to understand. But if you understand that the soul not only has experience beyond the earth life but also had experience before the earth life, it is more easy then to understand why people are in varied stages of growth. But, nevertheless, it is perfectly possible for all people eventually (whether in this earth life or beyond, perhaps in another earth life)..."

John Rush: "Well, I thought..."

Peace: "... it is possible for them always eventually to attain this inner peace."

John Rush: "I've known people, and I am sure they are aware of the fact that negative attitudes are hard on them, are hard on them...difficult things. Yet, they seem to be compelled...they can't get over the negative thoughts, can't get over this feeling of resentment of someone who has done something to them."

Peace: "Well, this is the life governed by the self-centered nature, you see. And, of course, many people that I have met lately are in the seeking period where their lives are partly governed by the self-centered nature and partly by the higher nature, you see, and so they are very inconsistent. See, this is a...this is a definite earmark of the seeking period, this inconsistent person who is sometimes very wonderfully motivated and sometimes still very self-centered. That is that struggle that we all go through between the self-centered nature and the higher nature in order to attain to the life governed by the higher nature."

John Rush: "When you began your struggles, did it seen rather hopeless to you? very difficult? that you would never attain this...maturity?"

Ann: "Or did you know what you were seeking?"

Peace: "I... You see I didn't really know what was happening to me except that my life was improving. Now, when I went through that struggle - after all, I was used to the valleys, I had been in them constantly before - I said 'Now there are some hilltops!

"Isn't this wonderful! Life is improving! There are some hilltops now."

John Rush: "But when you went back into the valleys you weren't depressed?"

Peace: "No, because I always had the feeling eventually I would come back again on the hilltop. I have always been able to accept myself and the experiences I was going through very easily as being perfectly natural. What I concentrated on was my cause. You see I was first working with senior citizens, and then I was working with people who had problems and, incidentally, I was also (when I discovered some of them) doing some volunteer work for some of the peace organizations, and so I had plenty of good work to do and I forgot about myself completely. I remember only certain high points like the night when I walked almost all night through the woods, feeling that I was seeking for a meaningful way of life which was just beyond my grasp. And at the end of that night I felt I had dedicated my life to service and I felt I had found what I was seeking. That was forty-one years ago."

"And then I remember the experience of the first glimpse of what the life of inner peace is like. That was when I was out walking in the early morning and all of a sudden I felt very uplifted, more uplifted than I had ever been, and I remember I knew timelessness and spacelessness, and lightness - I did not seem to be walking on the earth. And...there were no people there or even animals, but every flower, every bush, every tree seemed to wear a halo, there was a light emanation around it, and flecks of gold fell like slanted rain through the air. This experience is often called the illumination experience. At night there is often a burst of light, but being in the daytime, why.. that was my light experience."

"Well the most important part of it was not this phenomenon; I am just mentioning this. The most important part of it was the realization of the oneness of all creation - not only all human beings. I knew before that all human beings are one, cells in the same body of humanity . Every one of them of equal importance, with a job to do in the total scheme of things, and with equal potential. But now, I knew also a oneness with the rest of creation, the creatures that walked the earth and the growing things of the earth, the air, the water, the earth itself and, most wonderful of all, - a oneness with that which permeates all and binds all together and gives life to all, a oneness with that which many would call God."

"And then, of course, I got on the plateaus where I there most of the time and only slipped out of harmony occasionally. And I really believe that I missed harmony most at that time. After I had been there for quite some time and then slipped out, you see, I believe that was the time I missed harmony the most. And then finally, the time when I did succeed in leaving the self-centered life and, of course, again I can describe the circumstances. I had slipped out of harmony and I thought if I could just remain in harmony I could be of greater usefulness. And when I woke up in the morning I was back again on the mountaintop and I knew I would never need to descend again into the valley. And with that wonderful experience I went out and was back with my friends in less than an hour. And while I was out, you might say a thought just struck my mind, I felt this strong inner motivation toward this next way of witnessing for peace, this pilgrimage."

John Rush: "Oh, say you slipped out of harmony. Does that mean you entertained a negative thought for a while, or some...something where that you didn't live on the highest level, or that you knew..."

Peace: "You know, I really don't know what made me slip out of harmony that last time, but I know I lost the awareness of the presence of God. You see, the awareness of the presence of God is a part of your life after you have found inner peace, and I have never lost it since. That was the last time I lost it."

"I don't know why, but I know it happened."

John Rush: "Maybe not just the last time, but all through this period of ups and downs. What were your downs, really. Were they because you couldn't live the highest you knew?"

Ann: "Were you depressed?"

Peace: "No, I was not depressed. I was living the highest I knew, but you see there were a lot of things that perhaps I didn't yet know. I was, for instance, very hard on myself and I did describe that, and often it was a return to being hard on myself. The hardest thing for me to learn was to forgive myself when I did something that wasn't the highest. It was often this, and then sometimes it was a return to feeling overly concerned or apprehensive about the world situation, or some little part of the world situation that pulled me out of harmony."

John Rush: "Like worry or something?"

Peace: "Well, it...I suppose you could call it that. It see, I keep this to concern, which is good, and there may have been sometimes (now this is way back) when if the concern kind of slipped into a little bit of worry about some specific situation or even some person that I was trying to help, you see. So I imagine...

Ann: " concern that I am talking about, you know, that people have..."

Peace: "Yes. I think it is quite natural perhaps as we proceed toward the life of inner peace and, you know, I know many people who are doing very well. I wish I could help them in their spiritual growth but, as I pointed out before, it is a do-it-yourself project and, really, there is little I can do except to do is tell them 'Of course you can find inner peace, if I can find it so can you.'. And that is about all I can really do for them."

Ann: "It is interesting that you didn't find it...uh...your, your job in the total scheme of things, until you were a senior citizen?"

Peace: "This is true, except that the working with senior citizens and the working with people who had problems were leading up to my main job, and I am sure also the volunteer work I did for the peace organizations. So, I wouldn't say that that fifteen year period was a time when I was not following my calling because I think at that time I was just following some prior calling. You know callings sometime change - you go from one thing to another, and the fact that you feel this is right for you to do now doesn't mean that in the future something else will (not?) seem just as right for you to do."

John Rush: "I...I...I got from listening to you in the last couple of years, there are...there are two basic things: one is that you...first of all, you have to find your place in the divine scheme of things..."

Peace: "Yes, that's right."

John Rush: "That's...well, that's sort of the basic foundation."

Peace: "Yes."

John Rush: "And then after that you consider the relinquishments and so forth..."

Peace: "The living of God's laws, of the laws which govern the universe..."

John Rush: "...dealing with the times of being out of harmony, your anger and fear, and so forth..."

Peace: "And you may work on that one first before you have found your real job, you see."

John Rush: "But you must have the desire to find your real job, that is the first thing."

Peace: "Those are the two things that lead to inner peace, you see."

Webster Cotten: "What about becoming aware of the reality of God's laws."

Peace: "Well, I assumed that if you are not aware of the reality of God's laws you would not even be attempting to live them, and it is quite true that back in the stage of life where you are governed by the self-centered nature completely or almost completely, of course, you may not be aware. There are plenty of people that I have talked to who were not aware that hatred was destroying them. They thought they were hurting the person they hated when, actually, they were destroying themselves."

Webster: "Uh huh."

Peace: "After all, if someone hates me I don't even know it, and if I did I would just feel compassion for them and pray for them. I wouldn't be hurt, you see. They would. And there are people that don't realize that getting angry is just destroying them. They even...

[Some conversation missing here.]

Peace: "Now what you love in the person, no matter what the person is doing, what you love in the person is the indwelling Christ, the divine nature, the God-centered nature which is there. It may be deeply buried, but it is there, and it can be awakened. I remember when I spoke to this group of prisoners. They were all men who had done really terrible things; I certainly would not have condoned the things they did. But I can remember how wonderfully they responded to the steps toward inner peace and how, uh...just spontaneously they gave me a standing ovation when I was through speaking to them. Because, you see, something within them had been awakened."

Webster Cotten: "Uh huh."

Peace: "So, there is no one who is thoroughly evil. I can remember the English newspaperman who thought that in Stalin he had found a thoroughly evil person..."

Webster Cotten: "Uh huh."

Peace: "...until he saw Stalin playing with his daughter, and he said 'Why, he loves his daughter. Maybe there is no such thing as a completely diabolical person.'. There is always that spark of the divine waiting to be awakened."

Webster Cotten: "How did it get awakened in you, Peace?"

Peace: "Well, I believe the beginning was...oh, there were some things in my student days that may have prepared me. I believe when I established my rule of 'first things first' and started setting priorities in my life when I was still in grammar school, I was preparing for the pilgrimage because it taught me self-discipline and it led to a very orderly life. And I carried it into my adult life. I have always had priorities. My priorities were walking, speaking, answering mail - when I was counting miles. And as soon as I stopped counting miles my priorities became speaking, answering mail, and walking - and that is my present priority. That is why, when my other work is done I don't do that much walking. I get most of my walking around the college classrooms and things like that."

"Now; I believe that the Golden Rule affected my life for the better, and I was still in grammar school when I read the Golden Rule in history 'Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.' expressed in a lot of different ways pointing out that every culture had one. But I remember how it got an inner confirmation from me; it was different from anything I had ever read before and, therefore, it affected my entire life. I carried it into high school with my little saying 'If you want to make friends you must be friendly.'; and, isn't that an offshoot of the Golden Rule? A recognition that people react according to the influences brought to bear upon them, and I have it in my life today with my little saying 'If you want to make peace you must be peaceful.'. And, I think when I was sixteen and a senior in high school, and made my search for God and couldn't get my answer from the outside when I asked people 'What is God?', but then pondered deeply upon it, went to bed and slept over it, and got my answer from the inside, established a pattern in my life. Yes, I believe that it led me to take the inner way and not the outer way. I never looked to the outside for spiritual inspiration after that. Perhaps to nature for inspiration, but I should say I never looked to any religious teaching, you see, after that; because I had found the inner way..."

Webster Cotten: "Uh huh."

Peace: "...and through the still small voice within."

Webster Cotten: "Uh huh."

Peace: "And you know, aside from our early trainings which, of course, can be way off the beam, they have to do with the self-centered nature, the two good things that motivate our lives are either the things we touch from the outside and get inner confirmations on, or the things we directly perceive from the inside. And, I happen to take the inner way, but it is not superior to the scholarly approach because they both get to this deep level where there isn't any doubt, there is complete clarity and understanding, you can explain those things and discuss those things. Your own divine nature is actually a drop from the ocean of divine essence around you, and has access to the ocean. From that source came all inspired writing in the first place and somebody wrote it down, and you yourself can reach out directly into that source."

"Now, the other thing that I think of would be worth mentioning at all from my early life would be the fact that I began early to make good choices. For instance, I was in grammar school when I was offered real cigarettes from a package, which I didn't smoke; but my friends did. In high school I was offered all kinds of alcohol, even whiskey, which I didn't drink; but my friends did. Not only that, I faced a kind of a test in this regard. Well, for me at that time it was because just after my student days all of my friends used both alcohol and tobacco, and there was such a push toward conformity in those days (which they call peer pressure today) that they looked down on me because I didn't. And, gathered in someone's living room, I said to them 'Look, life is a series of choices and nobody can stop you from making your choices - but I have a right to make my choices too, and I have chosen freedom. And, you see, I went right on then with this pattern, to choose freedom from other enslaving things like negative thinking and, forty-one years ago, from unnecessary possessions and meaningless activities. It was really the realization that money and things were never going to make me happy that brought me out of the life of money and things and got me started on my preparation for the pilgrimage."

"Now, you may wonder how in the world I got involved with money and things in the first place. But, you see, we are taught these sets of opposites which are extremely confusing. I was very fortunate in that I was only confused by one of them. Most people are confused by both of them. On the one hand I was trained to believe that I should be kind and loving and never hurt anybody, which is fine. And on the other hand I was trained to believe that if so ordered it is indeed honorable to maim and kill people in war; they used to give medals for it. Now, that one didn't confuse me; I never believed there was any time under any circumstance when it might be right for me to hurt anybody. But the other one did. On the one hand I was trained to believe that I should be generous and unselfish which, of course, is very good. But on the other hand I was trained to believe that if I wanted to be successful I must get out there and grab more than my share of this world's goods, and that confused me up until forty-one years ago. Forty-one years ago, of course, I uprooted this false early training. It can be done, although it is often a difficult thing to do. Now, I have met quite a few millionaires. I have never met a happy millionaire. And look at Howard Hughes with his two-and-a-half billion dollars. Those who write about him say he was the most miserable, fear-ridden creature one could well imagine. It didn't make him happy. Well, now, why is this?"

"I know why you're not happy when you don't have enough money to feed your children. But why are you not happy when you have too much? Well, I suppose I can explain it in this way. If I were living in a big house and wasting food, throwing it away while all around me in hovels I could see people starving to death - could I be happy? Now the millionaire is far removed from the starving, but there is that still small voice within that bothers the millionaire, and keeps the millionaire from being happy. And, I discovered that as far as happiness is concerned, it is those who have enough but not too much who are the happy people, and mostly I'm associated with the happy people. At least the conditions for happiness are present with those people."

Webster Cotten: "Uh huh."

Barbara Reynolds: "This is something I would like to ask. Since [2 unintelligible words] what you are talking about is a kind of spiritual chain reaction where your life is encouraging others to think of peace. But you say yourself that by your uniform and so on you are making yourself available to those who are already [unintelligible] who are serious. Now what about all of those, the great majority of people, who are not serious, not drawn to peace, and who are caught up in this belief that the material way of life is the way of happiness.?"

Peace: "Yes, Barbara, I am indeed trying to inspire others to also walk the spiritual path, and this has of course happened. And the ones that will go the furthest, of course, are the ones who are already either interested in peace or the ones who are genuinely curious about their world. Now the others I also contact. I contact them sometimes when I speak to a church group; after all, I'm giving a sermon and they are there. Or when I speak to a high school group; I'm speaking and they're there. Or a college group, the same thing, you see. So I do contact some of them, but I contact most of them through the news media. I'm on a radio station or a television station that they are listening to. I contact the most people actually through the news media because, of course, I have done every national radio and television network several times and that contacts millions of people. And these people, of course, are often people that very definitely have never even thought about these things before, and they write me. Every once in a while, Barbara, one of them writes me and says 'Why, I never thought of that before, but I happened to turn on the radio and here I heard your voice talking about this and it was just fascinating, and I thought is that something I could do, and it gave an address so I wrote to you.'. So I do contact also the unconvinced."

Barbara Reynolds: "Well, I'm concerned [like] Ann is, about the, [the growth of?], when there are so many people who haven't enough food to eat and this is not just a matter of greed, it is also a matter of lack of resources or living in a country where there is not enough food or where there is exploitation. If you went into such a place where people are living in real deprivation and your message was inner peace, you would be communicating with people who are often despairing and desperate, not just for themselves but for their children and their families. And how is inner peace going to alleviate [unintelligible word] for them and do you feel that their primary need is to find an inner peace? And, you know, the responsibility on the part of those who care about this, to go to them with, say, food, in order to alleviate their hunger in order that they may then receive a good preoccupation in order to...

Peace: "Barbara..."

"Barbara, I understand you perfectly, of course..."

Ann: "Gandhi said to the starving, bread is God"

Peace: "Yes, you see you cannot communicate with them at all until their hunger is satisfied. You certainly can't talk to them about inner peace at that point. You can only talk to them about ways of getting food. Now, I said sometimes symptoms are so acute that even if they are symptoms of symptoms we must do something about it before they would be free, you see, to work on alleviating the cause. And so, in situations like this, while there might be an initial giving of food, the emphasis should always be on helping them to help themselves..."

Barbara Reynolds: "Well, I'm speaking about your own witness...your own life. Uh..."

Peace: "My own job is in this land where I was born,..."

Barbara Reynolds: "..Honduras..."

Peace: "... and the severe situations do not exist in this particular land where I was born, not to such a great extent, but I encourage others who feel it is their calling to work with people in South America or India or Africa or wherever starvation exists, you see. I would encourage them, of course, and I would say to them 'Your job really is to help these people to help themselves.'. Never a permanent handout because as soon as you deprive a human being of the opportunity to contribute constructively to society, that human being begins to deteriorate psychologically. And, so the valid thing, maybe a little food initially, but putting in an irrigation system if that is needed or whatever is needed in this situation, you see, to leave them in a situation where they will be able to supply for themselves the basic necessities of life."

"Now, I would say, even in this country, there is...there are some people who are living under deprived circumstances, and I would say the unemployed are the most deprived. They may get enough money to eat, but they are deprived of the opportunity to contribute constructively to society and therefore, of course, the seven or eight million unemployed in our country are in the process of deteriorating psychologically. Now I would like to stop this immediately. If I could I would say after maybe March 1st of this year all employable...(and those who say they aren't employable would have to prove it; they would have to be too old or too young or too ill to work) all employable unemployed people will apply for community work funded as welfare is funded. It could be done immediately and, of course, the work would be work the community couldn't afford to pay for but it would benefit the community, their own community, maybe even their own neighborhood, their own block you see would be benefitted by this community work. That is what I would do immediately because I think that that is the worst deprivation in this country, being actually told not in words but in the situation in which they are placed 'We don't need you; there is no place for you in society'. I think that is a terrible thing. Yes?"

Richard: "I would like to comment on both sides, both the positive and negative. I admire what you are saying here, and I want to talk about now the unemployed and employed. I think it is one thing to change behavior, for instance to get from 'A' point to 'B' point. The to carry out is to try to change people's attitudes about a particular kind of thing. I think one of the things I look for and what I'm trying to do in my own life, is get into harmony with my own self, things that come to me as inspiration that I see and hear you're doing. Actually, I wouldn't say it is a belief; I actually live that, and to give to a bigger calling than myself. There are two things that have come to my mind, like working with children, and administrator who administrates these kinds of things, and I'm preparing myself some of the things that are coming to me in terms of my own inspiration . I guess my question is - How do you take their awareness and turn it into concrete skills? Helping people to help themselves. It is one thing to get their awareness, but to give them some concrete ways if you will, of doing what they need to do?"

Peace: "Yes, I think there might have to be some training in some cases, of course, and also I would like to see them have some discussion classes where they were talking about actually things like steps to inner peace, because I realize it is not only a matter of changing their physical situation, it is a matter of changing them inside, of changing them psychologically or spiritually. Because I am sure many of them have wrong training, for instance, which would need to uprooted and things like that. So, I would say of course it would require not only education in skills, but also education in a proper attitude toward life."

Richard: "Sure, because that...surely, that...I understand that; that seems to me to be... Some people don't even know what is possible, what an option is for them. For example, in my own life - three meals a day and a roof over my head; that's been my whole way of looking at the world. Whereas, I have met other people who have already got those things and they can get on with life. And so, it is a different kind of circadian rhythm, if you will, that people operate in in the world. So..."

Peace: "But as soon as you see they have what they need physically, then they are really able to go further than that. And, of course, you understand (I'm sure we all understand) that in the first place, if there were not those who had much more than they need neither would there be those who have much less than they need. And here is something else; you don't even need to be good at arithmetic to figure out, that if the nations of the world were to stop manufacturing implements of mass destruction they could provide for every human being living in the world the basis for a very good life."

Richard: "Well, I agree with that. I go back to one of the other statements you made about if you are using whatever you're going to use, as long as you are using it for the positive and constructive. I like that. I like that whole attitude; that really grabs me in my heart. It's almost like heart-to-heart and mind-to-mind. Because a lot of people are afraid to risk, if you will, their own authenticity, they'll listen to a lot of things, but they won't take the listening to go from here to here, then go down to here, then out here... People are inclined "

Peace: "Yes, most will listen and even say 'I believe that.', but that's as far as it will go. They won't do anything about it and that is why, for instance, Richard, from the Christian teachings, Jesus said 'Why call you me lord, lord, and do not what I say?', you see, because that has always been the missing ingredient - the living these things."

Webster Cotten: "It seems to me that the core of your whole message, Peace, is we have to begin with ourselves..."

Peace: "Oh yes..."

Webster: "...take responsibility for ourselves. And that is the message you have been living, and it seems to me that is the most difficult thing for everybody to deal with - to take responsibility for themselves in the way you have done for yourself."

Peace: "But, of course, we must if we are to get anywhere..."

Webster Cotten: "Yeah, but how is that going to happen?"

Peace: "Well, now I admit however that there is some interaction because I noticed when I was working for good causes, if I could bring some of these people who were having real problems into those good causes, if I could get them really immersed in those good causes then, by becoming immersed in the cause larger than themselves, they were able finally to forget themselves and to solve some of their personal problems. And so, actually, there is some interaction. And I have found this, that people want to do the right thing. They don't always know what the right thing is..."

Webster Cotten: "Uh huh."

Peace: "...but they want to do the right thing. I have never found a person who did not want to do the right thing. Now a lot of them limit themselves. They say 'Oh, I can't do that.' even if it is their calling. I remember a woman who had a terrific... it was called an inferiority complex. Now she knew what her calling was and she went so far as to train herself for this calling, but at that point she balked. Also, a job was offered to her but she couldn't bring herself to actually go in and try that job. She felt she would be inadequate; she said 'Oh, I can't do that. I know I can't do it.'. And I remember I actually went with was something in a hospital that she had been trained for, and I actually went with her and sat in the hospital waiting room the first day so I'd be there, you see, and then of course very quickly she found she could do it. So, I would say don't too quickly say 'I can't do that.'. Whether it is relinquishing some physical bad habit, or whether it is relinquishing some psychological bad habit; don't too quickly say 'I can't do it.'. Now sometimes I have been able to inspire the person to realize that they could do it, because as soon as you get over that barrier then they are apt to work on it. They won't work on things that they think they can never do."

Richard: "Uh huh. Yeah. That seems to me to be in line with the inspiration that comes from something a person likes to do already. technically or something that has inspired them, something like events in their lives as a result of walking through the forest grove or thinking overnight. It seems as though only when that information comes or that event comes to a person, or through a person, can they actively get engaged."

Peace: "That's right."

Richard: "But, this can become a personal commitment to yourself as I am beginning to find out. I am making a personal commitment for my own self to myself, and take the responsibility for that commitment. Only after I see what are the possibilities, what are my options, , and what are our alternatives. Now I look at my alternatives and possibilities and in similar reality..."

Peace: "Yes, Richard, that is right. And, I'll tell you if you can get people started, you see . Remember, as you take a few steps it begins to seem possible for you to take more and more steps. So, if you can just get people started then, of course, the rest will you might say automatically falls into place."

Ann: "Can you tell us just a little bit about people or influences that started you, your parents or your environment [??]that encouraged you to try?"

Peace: "Well, actually, I was born on a small farm on the outskirts of a small town. I had a woods to play in, a creek to swim in, and room to grow, and I believe that was definitely a good factor in my life. In fact, I would wish this for all children. You see when plants grow up too close together they don't attain maximum growth, and we humans are a little like that too. That was good. Then my folks taught me to be strictly honest, which was very very good, and something about getting along with people. So, I am grateful for that. My mother gave me a sound body; my father gave me a sound mind. It was necessary for me to develop emotional stability myself because neither one of them was stable under extenuating circumstances; but I developed that myself. And, I had no church training of any kind in my youth, so I can't say it was due to the church training because I didn't have it. I first saw the inside of a church when I was about twelve when they were cleaning the Catholic church and had the door propped open so that I could stand on the sidewalk and look in and see the candles burning on the altar. And when I was sixteen I went into a Protestant church for a wedding. That was the first time I was ever inside of a church; so I can't credit that."

"Now, don't forget the Golden Rule affected my life and I put this into practice when I was very young. For instance, just beyond my student days...(re girlfriend who was jealous of job and office won by PP). But here I'm pointing out to you, you see, a spiritual concept rather than a person, because I didn't really learn the Golden Rule from a person I learned it from my history book in school."

"Now, when I was sixteen and a senior in high school came my search for God, and that is when I discovered I could get spiritual answers from the inside. And after that, of course, my seeking was completely an inner search rather than an outer search. That is why, very differently from other people that I know, I cannot say this and this and this person affected my life, because they didn't. I have met many wonderful people, I love them, I appreciate them, but they had nothing to do with my finding inner peace; most of them I met after I had found inner peace, you see. So, I am sorry I can't [break] [fragment] my life was concerned."

[Some conversation missing at this point]

Peace: "...that we human beings lumped together everything in the universe which is beyond the capacity of all of us collectively, and to all those things together, some of us (not all of us),but some of us give the name 'God'. And then I knew what I was looking for. And I looked at a tree and I said 'There's one.'. All of us working together couldn't create that one tree, and even though it might look like a tree it wouldn't grow. There is a creative force that's definitely beyond us. That is a part of God. And then I looked at my beloved stars at night, and I said 'There's another.'. A creative force, a creative power is keeping planets in their orbits. That's beyond us. I looked at all the changes taking place in the universe. Everything was changing constantly, and we tried to do something about it, often we couldn't. I said 'There's another one.'. Something is motivating toward constant change in the universe. And I also noticed that there is an overall intelligence which governs the universe by physical laws applying to material things, and spiritual laws applying to human conduct. And, of course, as a student I touched God many times as truth. Then, emotionally, I was able to perceive God as love and goodness and kindness and beauty. I felt God through the beauty of a sunrise or a sunset. And then, reaching out through an awakened divine nature, I was able to perceive God as the ever-present, all-pervading essence or spirit which binds everything in the universe together and gives life to everything in the universe. And, of course, that brought God close. I am within God. God is within me. I could not be where God is not. It removes all loneliness from your life, all fear from your life; your life is different. So that was my developing concept of God."

Webster Cotten: "What is your concept at the present time?"

Peace: "It actually is what I described when I talked about my peak experience or illumination experience. That there is an ever-present, all-pervading essence or spirit which binds everything in the universe together and gives life to everything in the universe. I live in the constant awareness of God, you see, and I realize that that is an essential ingredient of inner peace. If you still are not constantly aware of this presence, you still of course have a little way to go. And, also, if you have found inner peace you know your way. If you are still asking other people 'What should I do?', you haven't yet found inner peace. You don't know, you see. Now you may be working with other people and talking over things they are doing with you, but you would not asking what you should be doing because you know, you see; know that from within, you are sure, and you also know what you need to know to follow your calling. You don't know everything that is to be known; you can't do everything that is to be done; it isn't perfection, there is still learning and growing - but, you do know your way for you and there is an unshakeableness within you which takes you through any situation you may need to face. It took me through my experience of taking a facing death in a snowstorm, it has taken me through all these experiences - this unshakeableness within. There is a calmness and a serenity and an unhurriedness. No more striving or straining about anything. You live a very disciplined life. The unimportant things seem very trivial; you wouldn't waste your time on them. I couldn't imagine, for instance, spending hours playing cards and things like people do, you know. I don't say that there are some maybe feel the need of something like that, the very immature ones, but it wouldn't be for me, you see, at all."

"Only the things I am called to do are for me, and I know what my field is and, for instance, when Barbara talks to me about people outside of my field I know this isn't my job. And I bless those who have this as a job, you see. After all, I can't do everything. I just stick to what is my job, and what is my field, and I consider the fifty states really are my field. And that is a large enough field. I'm willing occasionally to step into my neighbors Mexico and Canada, but if you invited me to Europe or some other country I wouldn't even go, I would say 'No, that is not my field. Thank you very much, but I really don't care to go there because it is outside of my field.' So there is a lot of things you are very sure about and, also, when people point out to me some things, for instance in this country that need to be done - if it isn't my calling I say 'I bless those who are working on those things, they should be worked on, but this is not my particular job and so I stick to my particular job.'."

"Now, if I had time left over from my job that would be an altogether different thing. Then I would feel that I need to work on some of the other things that need to be worked on, but actually I don't have any time over from my job. I hardly now am able to walk enough even for exercise in this particular area."

Webster Cotten: "Uh huh."

Peace: "I know when I get into other areas I will be able to walk more, but Ann has been trying to entice me into the hills. I did go once..."

Ann: "Yes, one muddy morning."

Peace: " Saturday morning and it was so muddy that morning but still I went because I thought 'Well, Ann wants to show me this.', and it was a perfectly beautiful view from there..."

"... all the..."

"...- all the beautiful snowcapped mountains and, also, Los Angeles I think is much more beautiful from that viewpoint than when you get down into it. So; yes, I stick very well to my job. I have the discipline to do that and, of course, I started learning discipline in my early life."

John: "It is interesting that suffering is not part of your experience in following your call. This traditional Christianity is usually a specialty suffering."

Peace: "I know, John, but I'll tell you, when you have found inner peace you transcend all suffering. For instance, my experience in the snowstorm. I can't tell you that I suffered; it was a beautiful experience. When I was hit, remember, by the teenage boy who was terrified by the thundershower; I can't say that I suffered. I felt very triumphant that through facing his hatred with love his entire life was changed, and the bruises on my body didn't mean a thing. And when I was called upon to do a very difficult thing, which was defending that frail little eight-year-old-girl against that large man who was about to beat her, actually I felt very triumphant in that situation. I mean I felt that the spirit was triumphant, that God was triumphant you see and that God's way of love had worked in that situation and the girl was safe. So, I would say that those who talk a great deal about suffering are probably those who have not yet found inner peace."

John: "...rather unusual to hear you say this because in our tradition, the Quaker tradition, our founder was sentenced to years in prison because his message, speaking to church's encountered a great deal of hostility [?] "

Barbara : "I don't think he was...I think others saw him as suffering, but I think he was triumphant..."

Peace: "I think so too. Why, yes..."

Barbara: "[We think he was suffering because we compare it to our own experience]." (Why Barbara is saying this, PP make the following three remarks)

Peace: "You see we're not really sure he suffered..."

"Did he write about suffering?"

"You see, I didn't read the Quaker teachings, but..."

Barbara: "He wrote about being beaten, and how he didn't really feel the "

Peace: "Right. You see you transcend it! Of course..."

Webster Cotten: "But there is a relation between suffering and compassion. People who have gone through very difficult experiences in their personal lives, develop a compassion for other human beings..."

Peace: "Uh huh..."

Webster Cotten: "...and you feel that very quickly with someone..."

Ann: "But her experience just seems to be different..."

Webster Cotten: "Uh huh."

Richard: "It seems like there is a whole underlying going in here, a whole pervasive attitude here that came out of a conference that I was taking at UCLA masculinity and racism, and they talked about it, it was not necessary to go through a long suffering in order to be successful whole attitude . Look at it as a challenge. If you look at something that you really...your own calling in life is to drag this goal with you the rest of your life. ...your whole attitude."

Peace: "Yes..."

Webster Cotten: "But I'm really seeing that in your early life, there was some pain in your early life..."

Peace: "Not really..."

Webster Cotten: " a child, as a young adult?"

Peace: "Nothing, nothing severe I would say, and I was just..."

Webster Cotten: "You felt loved by your parents? You..."

Peace: "Oh, I had a lot of love in my early life. No I was just...I was raised under very strict circumstances. But, then I accepted that; it was the way all young people were raised in those days. But, I was just going to say that those who will not relinquish the inharmonious things voluntarily suffer. Those who are willing (as I am) to relinquish the inharmonious things voluntarily do not suffer, you see . And I think it is just the difference between the way I relinquished them and the way some people refuse to relinquish them and then do suffer when they are pushed into relinquishing them, you see. So I was just going to make that comment to you."

" know, in my day people were raised under very strict circumstances. For instance, children do not talk at the table; this is the place for adults to talk and, unless they are asked questions, they never speak at the table. When adults have company children stay out of the room unless the company asks that they come in, in which case they go in for a few minutes (like when an aunt came, you know), and then leave again. And, you see, all things like that. Children never play noisy games in the house; these games are for out-of-doors. Only quiet games in the house. And, of course, I did my homework at the dinner table with everybody sitting around. I had to learn concentration so I could get my homework done. So, I accepted this; there was no question about it."

"And also, I was not born into the wealthier segment of the community; I was born into the poorer segment of the community. And, therefore, I was never given any special favors. The wealthier people were given these things, like parts in plays and so on. But, I accepted this; this is just how things were. I was happy, you know, and I didn't have to have these things. But then I learned, if I earned it I got it The first time it was a fire prevention essay where we didn't put our names on it, we just put a number; the judges didn't even know whose essay it was when they judged it. And I won first prize, and so I thought 'Well, if you earn it you get it.'. And when I graduated from high school with three stars, which is every subject above 90 and general average above 95, they came to me and said 'Now you can give a speech at graduation because you have the highest average.', you see. And I looked up the history of my little town, and... I knew it by heart, of course, it wasn't really a speech, but I was just, uh...reciting something. But, still, I learned that you have to earn it to get it. Now, I don't think that that was bad; I think that that was good. Isn't it terrible to think that you can get things without earning them? It's a terrible thing. I'm so glad that I learned from the very beginning that if you want to get things you have to earn those things."

"So, I can't say that any of these things led to what you would call really suffering. I suppose the greatest...uh, uh... disturbance in my life was when I had the increasing awareness that money and things would not make me happy. I had it you see, and I wasn't happy..., and it wasn't severe because I immediately did something about it. I made a complete turnabout; quit living to get and started living to give just like that. Now if I had tried to do this gradually maybe I would have gone through some suffering in the process, but I did it quickly."

Ann: "But how many years were you living in that 'money and things' era?"

Peace: "I don't remember. There were quite a few years that I lived in that, however. You see there is some timing that I deliberately have put out of my mind because, you see I was a senior citizen when I started out, and I did want to walk my pilgrimage and be of usefulness as long as I was needed. And therefore, because we create through thought, I had to stop creating age and I had to stop thinking about age. I had to just forget counting birthdays and start thinking of myself as being ageless. Now, there is only one thing that is still in my mind, and I will not give it; so don't ask it. It is the year of my birth; this still is in my mind..."

John: "You should just forget it..."

Peace: "But...and maybe eventually I will forget it, but it is still in my mind now, I admit. However, how many years I was in the getting and spending pattern, I don't know..."

Ann: "Must have been about 20..."

Peace: "...and I don't know how old I was forty-one years ago when I stopped living to get and started living to give, and I don't know how old I was twenty-six years ago when I began my pilgrimage. Those things are completely out of my mind."

Ann: "So you could be a hundred as far as you know."

Peace: "It doesn't matter as long as I am able to operate just fine. What difference does it make how many years this earth body has been used? It...I am sure it will remain useful until there is no more need for me to be here and after that, of course, I will very gladly go on to a freer level of living. I'm looking forward to my death as life's last great adventure. I like adventure."

"Do you know [unintelligible]?"

"Well, now, I can pretty well remember back to some of those things in my early life because, you see, I could read some things before I went to school when I was perhaps four or five. And, therefore, when I went to school it was very easy for me to learn to read because I had already done some of it. Another thing is, when I was still very young, I must have been perhaps three years old, when I could recite long poems. I had a fantastic memory. Often if I heard the poem read just once I could recite it, and I remember I actually recited some of those poems without knowing what all the words meant. It was only in later years that I realized what the words meant that I was reciting, but I did have this amazing memory. I do remember my grandfather setting me on a white horse, and I was two when that happened; and I remember my grandmother playing the piano and I was three when she died. And so, you see, I do remember some things from fairly far back and I was good at learning because I loved it. You see, whatever you love you are good at."

Richard: "Do you remember what you read in the past?"

Peace: "What I read. Well, they were...things like little fairy tales. I remember some of the little poems were things like:

'Dark brown is the river;
Golden is the sand
It flows along forever,
With trees on either hand
Green leaves a'floating;
Castles on the foam
Boats of mine a'boating;
When will they all come home.'

It goes on. I could recite the whole thing, and where it says,

'I saw you toss the kites on high
And blow the birds about the sky,
All around I heard you pass
Like ladies' skirts across the grass.'

of course, that was the wind, and I know that...I know many of those little poems. Now those were the ones that I recited when I was maybe about four years old, and also the little books that had some of the fairy tales in them - I could read a good deal of that sort of thing."

Richard?: "At [?] what did you read?"

Peace: "Oh, schoolbooks. You see we had all kinds of stories in our schoolbooks, like The Gold Bug and Treasure Island and Heidi, and..; I mean things that were in the schoolbooks, actually in the school library."

Ann: "Were you a great reader?"

Peace: "I was never what you would call a great reader. I was a doer and, you see, from the time that I was a very small child I had a garden."

Webster Cotten?: "Yeah, I would imagine that the high school teachers today would call you a great reader."

Peace: "Would they?"

Webster Cotton?: "Yes."

Peace: "Well, I..."

"...didn't really think so. There were some that read many more books than I did. Uh...but you see, I was a doer. I loved things like...I loved to swim. That was maybe my main exercise at one time was to uh..."

"...when I was young, and that was swimming. And besides I loved to play the piano. When I was about eight, I can't remember if I was eight or nine, that summer I learned to play the piano. I started...I had learned the top notes in school. I had to pick out the bottom notes. But, I started with a learner's book my grandmother used to teach, and the learner's book was there, and I went right through it in the summer, you see. I did things like that. And then, of course, the garden. When I was very little, I can't remember if I was four or five, they gave me a tiny little round garden and some nasturtium seeds. You know they are big, and I planted them and got a beautiful beautiful garden of nasturtiums. And then they gave me some other things the next year; they gave me some radish seeds. I remember they came up quickly; and there were some fat red ones and some long white ones. And also, my father gave me some peanut seeds, and I can remember I was waiting for those peanuts to develop and they didn't. It bloomed, but no peanuts. And, lo and behold, I couldn't find the peanuts at all; my father pulled up one of the bushes, and there they were. You see, I was more doing than reading."

Richard: "I was wondering, uh, about that basic law (?) of your life, if it was doing, and how your interest has turned to peace now - how do those connect?" I remember one of my old teachers, whom I am very fond of, told me that all roads lead to the mountaintop. The way that you arrived by doing and doing and doing, your commitment of life to peace, as opposed to other people you have met along your 25,000 miles way... Have you met anybody that has made a commitment to peace by going other ways of getting to peace; anything like that?"

Peace: "Well, they are working on the other parts of the peace picture, very definitely. And, now I will admit to you that a great many of the peace people do much more talking than doing. They have long meetings where they sit around and talk about what could be done, and then they don't do any of it. But there are, on the other hand, some that are very dedicated in carrying out what they feel it would be good to do for peace. So they vary a lot.

A lot of them work on one particular project. There is a project which is being worked on a great deal today and that is to stop all nuclear use; that, I think, is developing into our next cause; and many of the peace people are devoting now their entire efforts in that direction.

There are a few of them that are working on tax refusal. Just as the people stopped the war in Viet Nam when enough of them got together, so if enough would refuse to pay taxes for war then, of course, war could not be financed and it would be necessary to cut down the building up of armaments. And they are very sincere, but they are a much smaller group than the group that is working to stop all nuclear use."

Richard: "I hadn't thought of that as being a big, a whole thing..., a picture. I hadn't thought about it being a big picture, but you are beginning to give me now the big picture. Now I am beginning to get in touch with how the American dollar has diminished as a result of foreign nations, you know, wanting more for their input, I mean export kinds of goods that go to the United States. Because, in a way, that is a way of cutting down the taxation...the money that could be used for war also."

Peace: "Uh, well...and don't forget that we're in trouble mostly because we use such a large amount of our resources on building implements of mass destruction, and some of them are horrendous like the neutron bomb which doesn't destroy property but does kill people. In fact, in one of the European newspapers there was a picture of a baby in a crib, and it said 'The neutron bomb isn't really that bad. The crib would not be harmed at all.'. It was just, of course, something that was very telling. Somebody mailed it to me, and I don't know that it was printed here. It was printed in one of the European papers. But, we actually, you see, are thinking in such terms."

"Now, I realize that our economy needs a full renovation. If you are thinking in terms of democracy as being controlled by the people, which I do, we have a good deal of individual democracy, the right of a minority of one to continue to speak, and we are not all that bad on political democracy; we don't use what we have. If we wanted to, if we really got together, we could elect all of our congressmen; we don't do it now. We usually choose between two that are put up by two groups of politicians, but we could. Now, social democracy is what we have been working on; this has been something that I have been working on practically all of my life. If we had social democracy all human beings would be evaluated according to merits and not according to groups. Now there has been progress. We have passed legislation and we are educating in that direction. Personally, I believe there needs to be more association among the various groups, because as soon as people learn to know each other they learn that our likenesses are really much greater than our differences, however great our differences may seem."

"Then, what we need to work on now is economic democracy, and this we are hardly working on at all. There are just a few small groups that are even aware that we need to do something about our economy. It has two glaring faults. One of them is production for obsolescence. I was walking through someone's living room and they had a television set going, and one comedian said to the other 'I got a medal from my company.'. "Why?' "I found a way to make a product wear out quicker.', and everybody laughed. It is really no laughing matter. While we scream that energy is in short supply and raw materials are running out, we're producing things that wear out quicker? And then, of course, the other one we did bring up and that, of course...the other one was the unemployment...the seven or eight million unemployed people in our country who are deteriorating psychologically because they are deprived of the opportunity to make a constructive contribution to society. So, I think that really the challenge for the future is to attain economic democracy, and it would also help in the attainment of social democracy and, as a matter of fact, our other democracies because they always interact."

Richard: "That goes right back to your basic foundation of peace..."

Peace: "Right.".

Richard: "... peace covering every area - social, economic, psychological, spiritual..."

Peace: "Right..."

Richard: "... this recent case John was telling about this minority who wanted to put up the hotel, and some...some feeling about that was the whole area of economic...economic pressures that were put on. They didn't want him to go through with the deal because they didn't want to share their common wealth . It goes back to your earlier point after you were saying involvement which is used for a constructive reason, a positive reason. It pervades the whole community and the whole atmosphere. If things are not...if peace is not used for constructive reasons... I think those are two things I would like to see how it turns out economically."

Peace: "Well, of course. I guess you maybe were referring to motive. Is your motive, you see, the right motive when you say the constructive reason, you do things for a constructive reason. That is, is your motive to help people or is your motive to get something for yourself, you see. For instance

[Some conversation missing at this point.]

Peace: "Always remember that while you certainly do not always agree with things that people do. Within every person there is this spark of the [fragment] [starts in mid-sentence] Frank Laubach. You see they really were trying to help people. Frank Laubach is the one that...he taught people 'each one teach one', was what he talked about, you see. I will teach you, you will teach somebody else, and the one you teach will teach somebody else, you see. And in India literacy was attained rather quickly. Also, it was a very simple method of teaching, and they still use it in the United States. Well now, these people considered themselves missionaries but they had a good motive, you see. Whereas other missionaries, I can tell you. I visited one in Mexico. Yes, uh...the lady that took me down had a letter to him, and so we went to look for him because her church was collecting pennies to support him. And when we got there we found a house behind a high wall with a locked gate. We had just about given up getting in at all when we noticed that he had come out onto the porch, so we called to him and he came to the gate and finally (after he read the letter) he left us in. And, I can remember his wife had three servants in the house. I remember the reaction of my friend; she had never had a servant in her life. [She laughs] And his wife said, when she discovered I was going to walk in Mexico, 'Of course you will have an armed escort.' [She laughs]

Webster Cotten: "Who was that, Peace?"

Peace: "She never...oh, this was the missionary's wife; she never went out except in a car. Well, she went out behind the high wall, but not onto the street except in the car, you see. He went out and taught in a little school. But you see here these people were living in the lap of luxury and churches were collecting pennies, you see..."

Webster Cotten: "This wasn't Laubach, was it?"

Peace: "No. No, no. It was far from him."

Webster Cotten: "Yeah."

Peace: "I said... Remember, I gave him as an example of a good missionary who really did some good..."

Webster Cotten: "This was another missionary?"

Peace: "I'm saying some are like that, you see. Some are like that, you see. But...that's because people are in various stages of maturity. Now, Frank Laubach was a fine person; I met him."

Webster Cotten: "You did meet him?"

Peace: "Oh yes. E. Stanley Jones was a fine person; I met him.

Webster Cotten: "Uh huh."

Peace: "So, you see...

Webster Cotten: "Was that after you were on your pilgrimage?"

Peace: "After I was on my pilgrimage. Yes, before that I didn't meet all that many wonderful people. It has been on my pilgrimage that I met all these wonderful people."

Richard: "That goes back to another saying of 'when the student is ready the teacher appears'. Like, every step you took before you got through with your whole 25,000 miles you met other inspirational things, events and people who come along."

Peace: "Yes, on my pilgrimage I met many. Of course, actually the people that I encountered at the time I was starting my pilgrimage, all tried to discourage me. They was not one voice that encouraged me to start my pilgrimage. They all tried to discourage me. I had to start out against the advice of all my friends."

Ann: "They thought that you would kill yourself the first year.."

Peace: "They certainly did."

Ann: "And where are they all now?"

Peace: "Under the sod."

Tom: "How many languages do you speak?"

Peace: "Only English fluently."

Tom: "What are..have you ever reflected on the value of the English language as a tool of communication, and that your work in communicating in the English language have you ever reflected on that time and time again, or once in a while, or never, or... ?"

Peace: "It is the tool I use. Now..."

Tom: "... true value..."

Peace: "Well, it's fine in this country. You see, George Bernard Shaw left some money to simplify it so that it could possibly be used as an international language. I believe in the establishment of a world language to be taught as a second language and, of course, this has been one of the suggestions. But remember, you couldn't use it in its present form. It would have to be simpler. Now it is very good in that there is only one article, not two or more. And, there is only one way of addressing people; it's not formal and informal. But, the spelling is not exact, the grammar is not exact. One word means a whole lot of different things. You see it would have to be very much simplified before it could be used as an international language, you see.."

Webster Cotten: "Wouldn't it tend to lose some of the richness if we simplified the language to that extent."

Peace: "Well, to us it would seem that way. But I would think that if you were establishing an international language you would want to establish a simple language where at least the spelling would be exact, the grammar would be exact, and one word would mean only one thing."

John?: "Like Esperanto?"

Peace: "Well, Esperanto is one of the...quite a number of coined languages, and it has some literature..."

Tom: "You're talking about losing the richness. Can you lose richness, then? I mean they're all richness. "

Webster Cotten: "Uh huh."

Tom: " they are all ; the things that you think are rich. But unless you experiment..."

Webster Cotten: "Yeah..."

Tom: "... and try a new thing, you have no idea of the richer riches that are await you..."

Webster Cotten: "Yeah..."

Tom: "Some of these people get confused in semantics..."

Webster Cotten: "Yeah."

Tom: " the English language. 'I want to hold onto this. I want to hold onto my nationality. I want to be proud of this. I want to be proud of that.' Instead of saying, 'If I change...'. They have no idea of what would happen if they changed, you see, and they haven't changed often enough to appreciate what would be waiting for them there."

Peace: "But I have, so I am not afraid of change."

Tom: "Well, I have too..."

Ann: "Like diet, you know... food that you eat of the normal American diet. People just don't see how you can possibly give it up no matter what they read about it being not good for you. But, when you make the changeover, speaking for myself, I mean I have never enjoyed my food as much..."

Peace: "I know, I'm the same way. I wonder how I could have eaten that horrible foodless food."

Ann: "Yes, I know."

Peace: "Oh, all the junk food, you know."

Tom: "Are you a vegetarian?"

Peace: "Oh certainly; I've been a vegetarian quite a long time. So is Ann. So is John.

Ann: "And we've never felt so good."

Webster Cotten: "I was going to ask you...I was going to ask you, Peace, you say that when you're in nature you get this very beautiful feeling. Do you have the same thing when you are eating? Is it, is it...Do you get..."

Peace: "Oh, it's constant now."

Webster Cotten: "Hmm."

Peace: "You see, this was in my period of serving and speaking that I found I felt the most harmonious amid the beauties of nature. Now I feel harmonious wherever I am."

Webster Cotten: "But when you're eating is it a celebration? It is a very joyful experience?"

Peace: "Yes, because I am usually with friends at that time. It is one of my few social times."

Webster Cotten: "Uh huh."

Peace: "The other social time is when I am being transported somewhere. Like, Jerry transported me last night, you know, to my speaking engagement and back, and we were talking, you see, and I found out what Jerry wants to major in in school, and I encouraged him. He wants to be a social worker and I think that is very fine. And so, those... Yes, I do have a feeling of kind of celebration because it is one of my social times when I'm interacting with people."

Ann: "And also, you have good food."

Peace: "Yes, the food is delicious."

Ann: "In our house, anyways. Ground sesame seeds with [?]. She loves...?"

Peace: "I know. Oh yes, I enjoy my food. I enjoy all God's gifts. Of course, I enjoy my food. And I'm thankful for it, and especially thankful when I am with Ann because her food is like the food I like to eat, you know."

Ann: "We were wondering what to do yesterday at a lovely church where she was to speak, and there wasn't any of the food that either one of us ate."

Richard: "I am interested in knowing more about vegetarianism in the past, now, being open and receptive to cancel out a lot of negative things that happened in my life. But I want to get back into some areas in terms of children - you know, back to your childhood, in terms of your mother and father. I am just now beginning to understand how mothers handle their children, how they know, with the baby on the right side near the heart, you know, where you can really hear the heart beat, where the bonding is occurring. You know, can handle whichever...if it is a girl or a boy, and if the mother wants a girl or if the mother wants a boy..., whichever one is her favorite. She handles... she handles it very fondly and very close to her heart. The person who is not so much favored, whether it be a girl or boy, is handled on the left hand side. I was wondering, who was the most influential person to your life - your mother or your father? In terms of the one you liked to be around, get your inspiration from, you like to be around, as a friend, a companion..."

Peace: "Well, in the first place, in my life there was more than just my mother and my father."

Richard: [Comment missing herer]

Peace: "Well, but in my early childhood. You see, in addition to my mother there were my father's three sisters who were unmarried and lived with us, and my father's one brother who was unmarried and lived with us. And, therefore, you see it was a large adult household."

Ann: "And you were the only child."

Peace: "And they all loved me, and were very good to me. Now, therefore, they all...I loved them all, frankly. And, I never try to think who do I like best, my mother or my father, because I was with my mother the most because she was at home and my father was at work. But, I loved the times when my father did have the time to take me someplace, and one time I remember he took me to my aunt's house. Oh, not very far away, but we went by train. And while we were in that city he took me to a movie that was suitable for children, and I remember I just loved that occasion. So, I can't say I loved one more than the other; I really can't.

Richard: "See, well I can't read your mind. I would never know that unless I asked you..."

Peace: "Yes. Sure."

Richard: "That's why I am asking. I was just saying that I've met so many people in my life whom I love and care for, but the caring and sharing started at a very influential age...very influential age, via one person or the other person, or either just in the family."

Peace: "Yes. Well, and you see I also loved my aunts very much and, again...well all three of them really worked out some, but the one who worked out the least was the one that I was with the most, you see. However, my uncle of course worked too."

"And I do, however very gladly talk to you a little bit about vegetarianism, and I'll just tell you why I became a vegetarian. I have a rule of life that I will not ask anyone to do for me things I would refuse to do for myself, and I would not kill any creature, not a chicken or a fish, and this is what originally made me a vegetarian. Now, It was only later, and a good deal later, when I discovered that flesh eating leaves eight poisonous residues in the body, from a doctor that made an analysis of this. And it was only on my pilgrimage that I discovered from a college professor, and he wrote a book about it, that it takes many, many, many times the land to raise the creature and eat the creature as it would to raise the fruits or vegetables or grains and eat them. And since I would want the maximum number of my fellow human beings fed, that would make me a vegetarian too. He said sometimes, imagine, ten or twenty times as much land! And, of course, I also realize that while human beings haven't yet learned not to kill each other, it might be a little in the future until large numbers of them will learn not to kill their fellow creatures."

Tom: " But when they start to multiply and take over areas and crowd areas. I think you are going to have a different situation. It's almost a necessity...."

Peace: "You know a forest ranger was talking to me about that. He said 'You know, I don't have to do anything about either the fox population or the rabbit population.' He said 'As soon as the rabbit population increases the fox population increases. And just as soon as the rabbit population decreases, lo and behold, the foxes are getting some kind of sickness and dying off, and it decreases.' He said 'This takes place without my doing a thing about it.' This is the balance of nature.'"

Tom: "The kind of animals I'm talking about are wolves, coyotes lions and tigers. You got lions and tigers in Africa, right on the continent now, and they would never , and there wouldn't be any Africa because all there would be would be tigers and lions , because the lions and tigers would have eaten the human beings by now..."

Peace: "Well..."

Tom: "What I'm saying is killing the animals."

Peace: "Well, of course, don't forget that we haven't ever let, except in small circumstances, the balance of nature take care of itself. That ranger did, but these are only in small circumstances where it has ever even been tried. So therefore, we can't really say..."

[some missing comments here]

Peace: "...because human beings tend to butcher off anything that they either feel they could eat or that they feel is eating something they want to eat."

Tom: "Do you believe that the animal is as God-like as the human being?"

Peace: "No, the animal does not have the divine nature. Only the human being has the divine nature. You see the animal has the self-centered nature I call this in the human being, but in the animal it would be called the animal nature. But it is partly conscious and partly subconscious, and the subconscious part can be a dog, or a ...a dog can be trained, a horse can be trained and so on in the higher animals. Now, the animal has something in addition to this, but it is not the higher nature. What it has its guidance through instinct. Now, the human does not have the guidance through instinct, but it does have the higher nature, you see."

Tom: "But can you take the nature out of the animal that are carnivorous animal."

Peace: "Oh, I don't ...hmm"

Tom: "Where does the animal get the nature to be a carnivorous animal..."

Peace: "Oh, I don' the first place, of course, those who make studies of this say that the saber-toothed tiger found in the glacier had only vegetation in its stomach. They feel that in the glacial age they started to eat flesh, and some animals adapted to it, and some did not, and humans never really have adapted to it - which is why it leaves eight poisonous residues in the body. They think that humans didn't eat flesh until after the glacial period. Now I am not the one that says this, you see..."

Tom: "I understand..."

Peace: "I'm merely quoting; I don't know."

Tom: "Well, this is the idea. "

Peace: "I have thought about it many times and..."

Tom: "Put yourself in a hypothetical situation. You are isolated, and the only thing that is available to you is meat. In other words, all the other...all the other... here by radiation, you know, atomic bomb and so forth have been destroyed. Now the only possible thing that you can survive on is to kill an animal and survive on that animal."

Ann: "They would have radiation too."

Peace: "I should think so."

Tom: "I understand, but this is a hypothetical situation of where your primary...uh..."

Ann: "You mean like Eskimo?"

Tom: "I'm not talking about the Eskimo especially, I'm talking about her values now and the inner peace that she has and what she would put first in this particular circumstance."

Ann: "... couldn't survive..."

Tom: "Survival of the human or survival of the animal?"

[?] "Peace must have been in this situation many times..."

Peace: "Why certainly, and I refused the flesh, of course..."

"However, there was a situation like this in the crossing of the Donner Pass. There was nothing to eat except human flesh and all but one man ate the human flesh. One man refused to eat the human flesh; he fasted, and he got out to civilization. He survived. All the rest ate the human flesh. There was one woman who did refuse..., although she had eaten some flesh, she refused to eat her husband. And, she did feed it to her children, but she refused to eat it herself, and she did die; we don't know if it was starvation or whether it was freezing. But, I mean you don't have to have a hypothetical situation. Look at the boys in the Andes, the basketball team that came down in the Andes, and nothing else to eat but human flesh. They ate human flesh."

Tom: "Was it right or wrong?"

Peace: "That was up to their conscience, not mine. I would be like the man..."

"I would be like the man, you see, who of course went out without eating it. There was only one man that didn't eat that human flesh."

Ann: "You see, she fasted for forty-five days... "

Peace: "Forty-five days, so I know how long one can go without eating."

Tom: "I Understand that"

Peace: "You knew I had fasted forty-five days?"

Tom: "Yes I did."

Peace: "Uh huh. I didn't know you knew anything about me because we've never met before, you see."

Webster Cotten: "I told him a few things about you."

Peace: "Oh, he's told you. Okay. I see."

"Well, of course. That's one way of telling...of knowing things. Were you going to say something, Barbara? You were going to say something before."

Barbara: "No, I was just thinking that [unintelligible]."

Peace: "That's correct, and I didn't eat it, of course. But I refused it lovingly. You see, I have discovered you can say 'no' lovingly. If you say it lovingly enough, you see, you can say 'no' to anything, and they won't be offended."

Barbara: "Well, do people ordinarily offer you a choice then?" ."

Peace: "Yes, I try to forestall their actually offering me flesh. I tell them I am a vegetarian if they invite me to dinner."

Ann: "You forgot to tell them yesterday."

Peace: "I know, well I didn't talk with them though, you see."

Ann: "Yes, I'm, sorry, I thought they knew you long enough to know..."

Richard: "They are very accommodating though. I've been there before. They would have made arrangements for ..."

Peace: "These were very nice ladies. It was at an Episcopal church in..."

Ann: "San Marino."

Peace: "...San Marino. Yeah."

Barbara: "I'd like to go back just a little bit where you spoke about your concept of God, also in talking several times about prayer."

Peace: "Yes..."

Barbara: "Could you tell me about your concept of prayer?"

Peace: "Yes..."

Barbara: " community .

Peace: "Well, at the present time I pray without ceasing, Barbara.

"You see it is an attempt to communicate, of course, with the divine essence, that you are not at present, you know, in communication with... It is very concentrated thought, which... of course, you create through thought. It is a very powerful thing. But in the beginning, for instance, I undertook my walking not only to contact people, that was only one reason, but also I undertook it as a prayer discipline to keep me concentrated on my prayer for peace because I hadn't yet learned to pray without ceasing. In fact, I undertook the forty-five day period of prayer and fasting as a prayer discipline. You see, "

Barbara: "Was that when you first started out?"

Peace: "It was the second year of my pilgrimage, and it was undertaken as a prayer discipline. Now after the first few years the prayer discipline was completely unnecessary because then I had learned to pray without ceasing. I had made the contact so thoroughly that into my prayer consciousness I just put any condition in the world I am concerned about or any person I am concerned about and, of course, the rest takes place automatically. We have more than one body, more than one consciousness, whatever you want to call it, and something else takes care of that - except, that occasionally it's brought into my conscious mind because I need really to concentrate on it. Some person is in a dire difficulty, you see; and if they return to my mind for thought I sometimes use the prayer of visualization which has always been very natural for me. But I understand it is not natural for everybody. I reach out, my divine nature reaches out to contact their divine nature, and then I have a feeling of lifting them, lifting them, lifting them. And then I have the feeling of bringing God's light to them. I try to envision them bathed in God's light. And, then finally of course, I do see them standing and reaching out their arms and bathed in golden light. And at that point, of course, I leave them in God's hands."

"Now that is not the only prayer you can pray, but I have discovered that some that were in very great trouble, this prayer of visualization was helpful to them, and I have heard the results later, you see. So, I do a little of this. There is a constant prayer of thankfulness; I am constantly thankful. The world is so beautiful; I am thankful. I have endless energy; I am thankful. I am plugged into the source of universal supply; I am thankful. I am plugged into the source of universal truth; I am thankful. You see, I have this constant feeling of thankfulness which is a prayer. And then, of course, every person I meet, they may be governed by the self-centered nature, they may not know their potential at all, but I see within them that divine spark, you see. And that is what I concentrate on. And all the people to me look beautiful; they look like shining lights to me, you see, and then I always have the feeling I am thankful for these beautiful people who walk the earth with me, you see. So I would say part of my prayer is a feeling of thankfulness and, of course, a feeling of genuine love toward all of God's children and all of God's creation. That is a little bit about prayer."

"Now, when you're learning, it's true that it may be valuable to take special times, even to use special forms; I can see that.

Barbara: "When you started your period of fasting, did you determine it was going to be for a certain period, or was it..."

Peace: "No."

"Until I saw a sign, you see, because in addition to fasting as a prayer discipline in regard to my prayer (my general prayer for peace), I had at that time a special prayer for a beginning towards disarmament, and I remember my sign was when Churchill met with Eisenhower in the Atlantic and they talked about disarmament and, of course, their pictures were in the paper and I felt that the time had come to discontinue the fast, that a beginning had been made. Of course, it isn't accomplished yet by any means, but there has been talk about disarmament since; whereas before that there was no talk whatsoever about disarmament, and now Russia and the United States are talking about disarmament, and.... Oh, it takes such a long time and so much talk when you are dealing immature people."

Barbara: "What's form did your fast take?"

Peace: "Well, I...the first three days - In the first place my last meal was a grapefruit and two oranges, so I wasn't thirsty. My first three days were undertaken without food or water. And after that I took pure water at room temperature, nothing else. And when I broke my fast it was not unusual, just a regular way to break a fast - the juice of one freshly squeezed orange every hour the first day, the juice of two freshly squeezed oranges alternating with the juice of one freshly squeezed grapefruit every two hours the second day, a grapefruit and two oranges three times the third day, and after that adding a little bit until in a week you were able to eat full ration. So, it was no different really than the usual pattern of fasting."

"I did obey the law of the fast - no extreme exertion while you are fasting. I did not walk long distances; I walked some of course, but not long distances while I was fasting. And I was at the home of a doctor who used fasting for healing, and he wanted to see how a well person would react to a fast because he had never fasted a well person. And I typed; I did some of his work for him. I typed until about a month along into the fast when he took the typewriter away. He didn't think I ought to handle it anymore, and so then I wrote by hand which was really harder than typing.[laughs] But I do the best I can with these things. And so...I didn't...I didn't go over and talk to his patients as much as I would have liked to because he didn't want me to move around that much. But I did go occasionally, of course, and keep up their spirits... Huh?."

Richard: " call it meditation. Can you remember back when you were meditating when you fasted the for forty-five days, can you remember the last two or three days; were you able to dream - were your dreams more vivid, or were you seeing colors, or were you able to have precognitive thoughts in terms of thinking things before they actually happened ?"

Peace: "I have had some instances of premonition, and I have always dreamed in color, and so these things are not different. However, I make no attempt whatsoever to remember my dreams, and I do not remember my dreams. What I do in my sleep state, and we have great activity, of course, in our sleep state, learning certainly

[Some comments missing at this point]

Peace: house, the living room went up two floors, and there was a balcony outside the bedroom. I came out of my bedroom onto the balcony and I looked down and they were meditating in the room below. They were sitting in a kind of an oval, and they were sitting in what they could assume of a yogic posture - it wasn't this, it was more like this, you see - but they were attempting a yogic posture. And I looked down on them and I couldn't feel harmony from them at all. What I felt was restlessness; 'Gee, my foot's asleep; I wonder how long this is going to take.' Well, you know they weren't meditating at all. This is ridiculous! You don't have to be in any certain posture..."

"You can be lying down or you can be on your feet. You see I never did anything except on my feet. I walked, receptive and silent amid the beauties of nature. Look what I got here. You see, the young folks talk to me about meditation and breathing exercises. In some cultures of course they are spiritual practices. But from the beauty around me I got my inspiration; from the silent receptiveness my meditation; and from the walking, both my exercise and my breathing. Four things at once. And you see you can't be too pushy when you are doing four things at once because you really have to be careful with some of these things; you can overdo them. I met a woman who spent six hours a day meditating while but she neglected her children, you see, and this is ridiculous. Also, I have met two young men who, through strenuous breathing exercises, really injured themselves. One of them gets regular seizures now, you see. You have to be real careful about these things. But when you're walking you can't be too pushy, you see, you have to be gentle about these things."

Richard: "Well that goes back to my basic question I asked about 'there are many roads to the mountaintop'. I do know Seminole Indians perhaps who do believe that dreams are messages from yourself to yourself and that what they dream at night if discussed in the morning actually make their dreams come true the day. They have no problems, they have no wonder how you forty-five days fast."

Peace: "Yes, it has nothing whatsoever to do with dreams."

Richard: "Right."

Peace: "Uh...And one can go overboard on dreams too. lady wrote to me and she said 'Peace, I don't know what i'm going to do. I'm addicted to writing down dreams, even when I take a nap in the afternoon I have to write down what I dreamed. And I have reams of worthless material, and I can't stop.' Now I can understand how if you dream something and you really concentrate on it you can make it come true because you create some thought. Maybe it isn't even desirable for your dream..."

"... to come true, you see. So, I would never think in those terms of trying to make my dreams come true. However, we use of course the phrase 'may your dreams come true', but we...I would mean by that may your highest aspirations come into materialization, you see, because we dream some perfectly awful things that I would never want to come true. I don't have...I can't remember having any severe nightmares, but there are those who do and certainly you wouldn't want those things to come true and you wouldn't want to try to make them come true, you see."

Richard: "I don't want belabor the point, but what I'm saying is there are other areas and other ways of seeing and being in the world. That's what I'm saying."

Peace: "Sure, many ways..."

Richard: "In 25,000 miles I'm sure you have experienced some feelings beyond hearing, tasting and feeling."

Peace: "I have had all the common experiences beyond the five senses."

Richard: "OK."

Peace: "I can't say I consider them important. You see, it is inevitable that these things should happen because, especially after you have attained to inner peace and even some before, you start going through all these common experiences, you see, and I would say be careful you don't get attached to any of them because at first they are not very clear and then they come very clear and at that point I know that if you concentrate on them and do not commercialize on them..."

" can retain them. But, you go off on that sidetrack, that is the end of your spiritual growth. Better to let yourself go through them and go on to other experiences, you see, and you will never completely lose them - they will always return when there is a reason for it."

Ann: "You mean, like being aware of your past lives?"

Peace: "Yes, things like that."

Peace: "Knowing what people are thinking, finding lost objects; there is all kind of things..."

Webster Cotten: "You mean you have that ability to know what a person is thinking?"

Peace: "Sometimes. But I do not even want that ability. It is like invading their privacy, and this is turned off practically all the time. The only time when it ever turns off...whenever it ever turns on is when there is a very disturbed person..."

Webster Cotten: "Like the other night, last night?"

Peace: "Last night, she was a very sick woman. By the way, that woman came up to me as nice as pie and said 'I want to shake hands with you and say goodbye to you.'"

Webster Cotten: "Yes."

Ann: "Did you choose to be born now, because of the world situation?"

Peace: "Oh, certainly. This is the crisis, you see, and if you have chosen to work in a crisis period like this, to be a pilgrim, naturally, you come in at that time. Sure. Sure. Sure. There are many servers here now."

Richard: "That's part of my...that was part of my born, the mother and father "

Peace: "And you choose your lessons many; you choose how many you will be willing to undertake."

Richard: "There are other people it takes them one or two lifetimes to know what it is all about."

Peace: "Oh, of course. And there are a few people the just...that are just beginning their evolvement, that even do not choose - they are kind of pushed in, you see. But that is only a few times until they are starting their evolvement, you see..

Webster Cotten: "So you feel, Peace, the...that anybody can do what you've done - not for the pilgrimage, but..."

Peace: "Not the pilgrimage..."

Webster Cotten: "but can go through the first stages."

Peace: "...but the inner peace; they can find inner peace"

Webster Cotten: "They can go through the growth stages to inner peace."

Peace: "All can. Now, I'm not saying..."

" ...I'm not saying all can in this earth life, but they can eventually, you see. I look at life as a continuing thing. They can eventually, you see."

Webster Cotten: "But they can start it in this earth life..."

Peace: "They can start in this earth life, and I would like to inspire them to make a start."

Webster Cotten: "Can they go through the various stages..."

Peace: "They can go through many stages in this earth life. There is a great many people who are particularly interested, for instance, in inner peace who will be able to go through the entire growth pattern in this earth life. You see, there is a lot of people that wouldn't even listen to me speak uh..., but those who are interested in general are capable in this earth life of going through these stages - or, at least, of making certainly a very very good start in that direction."

Ann: "And you say they will obtain the blessing endless Good health?"

Peace: "Oh well, why not? Of course."

Ann: "I don't know of anyone else."

Peace: "Well..."

Ann: "Have you?"

Peace: "I obtained....."

Ann: "...know anyone else who has attained this endless energy that you say is there for all of us and who has endless health."

Peace: "Oh, the energy is there; there is no doubt about that. You felt it when I gave you the exercise, and you plugged in, you see."

Ann: "......... but I mean have you run into anyone else who has attained the blessing of this endless good health..."

Peace: "Well, the people that I met that had found inner peace were in good health. I don't know that they had had good health from the beginning of the spiritual growing up, but they had good health when I met them. And they certainly had energy for the things that they were called to do. You see, not everybody requires the energy that I require to walk the pilgrimage..."

Ann: "Gandhi, for instance, he didn't have that energy..."

Peace: "Well, but you see when you read about Gandhi, I imagine at the end he must have attained to inner peace, but you read about a lot of his struggles when he had not yet found inner peace."

Ann: "And he did expect to live to be a hundred and twenty."

Peace: "Well, and he might have. You know he was killed."

Barbara?: "Well, maybe there are different reasons we go through that suffering..."

Peace: "Oh yes..."

Barbara?: "Others have suffering in other ways..."

Webster Cotten: "Uh huh."

Peace: "Those were karmic. See they have undertaken that.

" "

Peace: "Of course."

" "

Peace: "So I apparently didn't have any particular health problems that were karmic, and my colds and headaches and petty annoyances when I was young were due to the fact I wasn't living right. I was eating atrocious food and things like that. (Laugh)"

Ann: "Were you ever sick at all..."

Peace: "Colds..."

"I mean..."

"Colds, headaches; they are the main things. No, I didn't have any serious illnesses; no. I've never had a doctor, with the exception of there was a doctor present when I was born, and then in school. In school they examined you once a year - throat and heart and pulse and eyes and ears. And, then nothing until uh I got to the health resorts and one of the health resorts examined me, that superficially, plus taking my blood pressure. So that is the absolute amount of my association with doctors, except when they...when I was staying at the doctor's home and the doctor was my host, I associated with him then..."

Ann: "No tonsils out or anything like most people had."

Peace: "Tonsils out? no. You know, the first year of school she sent a note home - 'tonsils', and my folks immediately...that's right, so that's one time when they took me back to him, and so they said 'What's the matter with her tonsils?', and he said 'Nothing, but you know she should have them out when she's young, it will be harder later.'. And, I said 'If there is nothing the matter with them I won't have them out; they must have some purpose in my life.', and I made such a fuss over it that they left me keep them and I've still got them. Now we found...we find they are a safety valve, as are the appendix."

Webster Cotten: "How old were you then, Peace?"

Peace: "I don't know; at that point I must have been six or something like that."

Webster Cotten: "Okay...but even at that time you knew what was important."

Peace: "Well, I knew I didn't want the tonsils out if there was nothing wrong with them."

John: "I've never known anyone quite as persistent as you are..."

Ann: "Oh, yesterday at the radio station there was a woman that uh...she...uh...she was later than we had expected and we had another engagement for lunch. And Peace said 'Well, we'll have to leave only...we have only half an hour; we'll have to leave at 11:30.'. And this large woman said 'You are staying here until 12.'. And Peace said 'Well, all right.' She was more stubborn than Peace."

Peace: "I said quarter of twelve..."

Ann: "Yes."

Peace: "And she said till twelve. Well, the reason was very simple - all I would miss would be lunch, and speaking comes before lunch..."

Ann: "So, you would have been more stubborn than she..."

Peace: "Oh, if it had been a speaking engagement I would have said 'No, I cannot stay until twelve.'. But it was not a speaking engagement, just lunch, and I said well, okay, I can miss lunch . In fact, I think I even said that 'I can miss lunch.' And we didn't even miss lunch."

Ann: "We didn't even eat lunch.

Peace: "Well, I did; I ate a pear...that you brought."

Ann: "Yes."

Peace: "Oh dear. Well, I think we have had a beautiful afternoon..."

Webster Cotten: "I...I...just, just, John. You tried to get an answer to your question earlier, and I'm not sure that Peace really dealt with it."

Peace: "You mean the suffering?"

Webster Cotten: "No, no. Not the suffering question. The fact, Peace, that you are such a unique human being..."

Peace: "Every human being is unique..."

Webster Cotten: "Absolutely..."

Peace: " two alike."

Webster Cotten: "That's right, but there is something about your uniqueness that has a very special quality about it, and this is something that I'm fascinated with, all of us are as a matter of fact."

John: "I believe the fact that other people don't attain it and they should attain it."

Webster Cotten: "Uh huh."

John: "...and there's something wrong with us because we don't.

Peace: "No, there is nothing wrong if you're really trying. It may be, you see, in the first place that you have chosen to pay some karmic debts which I have not chosen to pay and, in the second place, that maybe I've lived more lives, you see. This is a possibility and, therefore, you see, it is easier for me than it would be for you. And that doesn't mean, however, that you will not eventually attain it if you keep going. And just as...look, we expect spiritual growth to go too quickly We do not expect physical growth to go quickly. And any five-year-old child knows he won't be as tall as his father at his next birthday. We don't expect mental growth to go quickly, and any first grader knows he is not going to graduate into college at the end of the term, you see. One difficulty that we have is that we expect spiritual growth to go just like that. We expect to be able to kneel at some altar and we're there; and that doesn't happen."

Ann: "I guess I don't understand why Ann isn't growing. But she helps me."

Peace: : "But she is growing, Ann is doing wonderfully well, you see.

Ann: "She really is."

Ann: " uh, since relinquishment is important...quick relinquishment...."

Peace: "That's right. Quick."

Ann: "Okay, then why don't we...we have quick relinquishment, why don't have quick growth then..."

Peace: "But, actually, a quick relinquishment will lead to a quicker growth. But I have...I took fifteen years to get through the spiritual growing up, but people I've talked it over with took longer than that; so I cannot say that there is anybody who has gone through it before fifteen years because I don't know of anybody; the others took longer, you see. So it just does take time, and we should be very patient and enjoy the season of life we're in. I hope a five-year-old enjoys his life. I hope a first grader enjoys the first grade. You see, don't be impatient to get to a higher grade; enjoy the grade you're in and do as much good as you can right where you are. I think that is the important thing, really. Of course, and don't be impatient."

Ann: " [Comment is missing.]"

Peace: "Well, don't I enjoy life?"

Ann: "Oh sure, but I..."

Peace: "I sure do. I'm going to...oh, I'm going to lead that tour to Alaska; I'm going to enjoy every minute of it. There was a woman last night who said she might like to go; maybe I'll gather a few more people and have to get a bus that holds more than twenty people."

Webster Cotten: "Now, Peace, you've always enjoyed life, apparently."

Peace: "Yes, this is not new..." (Laugh)

Webster Cotten: "You have always enjoyed life... but it must have been a struggle at certain points along the way. It must have been difficult; you had to make that extra effort to keep moving along, it was not just an easy process to do..."

Peace: "But, I have the energy to make the extra effort, you see, and so I have walked 50 miles in a day when necessary..."

Webster Cotten: "Uh huh."

Peace: "...I have been able to do it, and I have gotten very cold sometimes and been able to survive that. You see, now some things don't seem so difficult - like going without food doesn't seem all that difficult, you see. Going without sleep would be harder, although I can miss one night's sleep and I...I don't mind. Every once in a while I miss a night's sleep, but not for a while now; the last time was September of 1977 and I was in a truck stop and I intended to sleep a little but, you know, it was such a big truck stop, that I spent all night talking to truck drivers. Because the first thing after I came in, a truck driver who had seen me on television wanted to buy me some food, and I sat down in a kind of a corner with the rest of the truck stop in front of me like, and then truck drivers started to arrive, you see, and it was just one wave of truck drivers after another that were standing there and asking me questions and so forth. I actually just talked to them all night, and I never did get uh...uh, to do any sleeping. After while somebody offered me breakfast, and I ate that and left."

Ann: " truck driver .... 'There's a little old woman there...'"

Peace: "Oh, but they were interested! You know an open sesame is if you've been on television."

Webster Cotten: "Now you're a celebrity."

Peace: "Yes, and I keep pointing out to people all you have to do is murder somebody to get on television. So, you see it isn't all that wonderful to be on television, but nevertheless - 'Oh, she's been on the Joe Pyne program. Was he mean to you?'. You know Joe Pyne is dead now, actually, but some of them remembered.

Ann: "[we took you there]"

Peace: "You took me to the Joe Pyne..."

Ann: " LA, and..."

Peace: "...that television."

Ann: "Uh huh, he was the meanest person and we hadn't lived out here very long to know about him. Everybody was saying 'Oh, my goodness, don't take that little woman there.'. And he was not mean to her at all."

John: "He defended her."

Peace: "Remember him defending me against the man that attacked me? And... but on the radio which I did first..."

Ann: "Oh...with Pyne?"

Peace: "...he called me the freest...Yes,...he called me the freest person he had ever known and, believe it or not, he called me the sanest person he had ever known. That's the only thing has ever made me speechless; I just didn't know what to say. I said 'Well, thank you.'. [laughs] I was so surprised."

Ann: " remember "

Webster Cotten: "As a matter of fact, Tom was on the Joe Pyne show, and that's the reason...that's the way I met Tom. I saw him on the Joe Pyne show."

Ann: "Which Tom?"

Webster Cotten: "This Tom."

Peace: "Did he treat you well, Tom?"

Tom: "Well, uh"

Webster Cotten: " Crucifixion."

Tom: "I don't understand what you mean about treating me well..."

Peace: "Well..."

Tom: "I think the hardest lessons I learned in my life, and the best lesson, was when I've been bawled out being mean and so forth, , but later on in my life I have remembered that those people taught me the biggest lessons in my life."

Peace: "Oh yes, you learn something from everything that you face..."

Tom: " They were mean, if you want to have that word in your vocabulary ... but because they were that way they taught me real big lessons. If they had done it any other way I wouldn't have learned."

Peace: "Well, I'll tell you, Joe Pyne (after the radio program) I talked with him and I said 'Joe Pyne, I was told you would probably tear me to pieces but, instead, you have been especially nice to me.'. 'Why', he said 'I don't see how anybody could be mean to you; you're sincere.'. He said, 'Now my job is to tear down the phonies.'. 'But' he said, 'if you're sincere I wouldn't think of being mean to you.'. But he chose. .he judged as to who was a phony, you see."

Freda?: "He was acting [?]."

[?]: "That's right..."

Peace: "I know, I know..."

Tom: "And when he came up against me he came up against the wrong guy. When he came up against me he came up against the wrong guy. And I've had people say they saw that show and they never saw that man get so mad in all his life..."

Peace: "He got mad?"

Tom: "He said 'Now you get out of here; you're all done.' All right, now what did I do. I got up and I went over to him just like this and gave him my hand..."

Peace: "Did he shake your hand?"

Tom: "Oh yes, he was shaking like a leaf."

Peace: "Oh, he did. And he shook your hand?"

Tom: "He was shaking like a leaf and he shook my hand. I said 'Have you got a match; got a cigarette?' He said 'Somebody go get this man a match right now.'."

Peace: "He smokes, I think."

Tom: "Yes, he smoked. He had cancer."

Peace: : "I know, well that is one reason for having cancer, of course."

Tom: "Well, you see I learned my lesson in different ways; I'm not saying which is the right way and which is the wrong way. But I learned my lesson from a few things that you can't analyze, this ire, anger, and so forth. And I teach almost that way, through anger and getting people upset. You see, it is just like...":

Peace: "You do?"

Tom: "Yes, its because it's something just like a bowl of milk or something with the cream coming to the top. After it settles, if you stay there long enough it will just settle away. I just come and stir it up again so it will come alive again."

Peace: "But I think it is much better to inspire them than to make them angry, because if you make them angry you are appear...appealing to something which is actually harming them; whereas if you inspire them you're awakening their higher nature, you see. I know there is that school of thought that you have to make people angry to teach them anything, but I don't believe that is true, and in all my teaching if I have made anybody angry I'm sorry for it. I have never attempted to make anybody angry."

Tom: "You talked about nature; you must see all the anger in nature at times..."

Peace: "I see all the beauty..."

Tom: "You you cannot appreciate peace unless you really know what anger is..."

Peace: "Uh..."

Tom: "...and then you talking about valleys and so forth. There are higher and higher valleys, and lower and lower valleys...

Peace: "It depends what you see; it depends what you see. You see, you know the classic story about the two people who looked at a glass which was half... "

Tom: "Uh huh."

Peace: "All right, and one said 'That glass is half full; how wonderful!'. And the other said 'Why, it is half empty; how awful!'. You see? You depends how you look what you see and so, of course, I remember to see the good..."

Tom: "Yes, but your talking and your thinking and all your rationalization that you're just talking...

Peace: "It's not rationalization..."

Tom: "Wait a minute, it is..."

Peace: "The truth is..."

Tom: "a rationalization. "

Peace: "The truth is the only reality. Don't forget that anything that is out of harmony is eventually going to disintegrate. It can't last. It is only, you see, the truth that can endure."

Tom: "Right, right..."

Peace: "All right, okay."

Tom: "But, wait...wait a minute now. We're talking about who has the truth. The expression..."

Peace: "God has the truth."

Tom: "Are you going to let me talk? See,..."

Peace: "Oh?..."

Tom: "Now, I've listened to you for the last two hours now; I'd appreciate a minute's time. Can I have a few minutes?"

Peace: "You can have a few minutes. Everybody can have a few minutes."

Tom: "I was invited here and I drove quite a way, and I'm going to have to drive quite a way..."

Peace: "Where did you come from?"

Tom: "Riverside..."

Peace: "That's not so bad; nice drive."

Ann: "You came all the way from Riverside? You want to go anywhere it is warmer?"

Tom: "No, dear, this is only gonna take a minute now because I gotta go.

Ann: "ok"

Tom:  "Expression is one of the things that keeps people alive the longest. In other words, longevity in life, like a priest, like everything in nature,teacher, minister, things of that sort. People who have expression have the longest longevity in life. I mean, I was in the insurance business and I know the actuary figures. Now, when people have taken all this kinds of expression and so forth like, you know, church, the minister is doing all the talking, and the priest is doing all the talking, they're taking life from other people to whom they do not expose the chance to speak. In other words, you can get strong by using all the expression yourself and keeping everybody around you quiet. You can gain a real strength in this, and longevity in life. The trick is to teach these other people to speak and give them longevity, you see. Now you, as far as...I'm telling you one of the assets that you have, and one of the things that keep you going, and one of the things that may make your hair turn black. As long as you have expression and you get your ideas and thoughts out, whether they are truth or imperfect truth - regardless, they are the . All right, that's going to give you longevity. And God Bless you. I have to go."

Peace: "Well, thank you. Of course..."

Tom: "I gotta.... "

Peace: "The people that I have found that had found inner peace were very quiet people who did very little talking. You see, not everybody is called to speak. God bless you. I appreciate your going to all this trouble of coming out here..."

Tom: "It wasn't any trouble at all..."

Peace: "Thank you ever so much."

Tom: "Right, nice meeting you."

Peace: "Nice to see you."

Webster Cotten: "Tom."

Tom: "About two weeks from tomorrow."

Webster Cotten: "Okay, I'll talk with you."

Tom: "OK"

Webster Cotten: "OK"

Tom: "You take care of yourself."

Webster Cotten: "OK."

Peace: "Thank you. Bye.

Webster Cotten: " Thanks for making it, Tom."

Peace: "Bye. And I think perhaps we have had a very good afternoon..."

Webster Cotten: "Very good."

Peace: "Those who don't know...for those of you who don't know what time it is, it is after four-thirty."

Webster Cotten: "It is four-fifteen, Peace."

Peace: "Well,...maybe that clock... that clock was a little fast."

Ann: "Remember what you said; I will remind you."

Ann: "What was that?"

Ann: "Before lunch. Well, uh. Dr. Cotton, you know, 'A short little session.'" "

Peace: "Sure, because I thought all...I didn't know you were going to bring people out. We had..."

Ann: "I didn't dare tell you because I knew what you were going to say."

Peace: "We had...we had ten people which is enough for a meeting, and it is a tiny meeting but it is enough for a meeting, and... say, one of those men left and I didn't even say goodbye to him."

Ann: "I know it..."

Webster Cotten: "John, he had to leave."

Peace: "John K.?"

Webster Cotten: "John Kilgore."

Ann: "....three of those little booklets..."

Peace: "Yes, Ann, oh. Well, I thought he was coming over and I didn't think he would want to record more than an hour and I thought he was going to come over...

Webster Cotten: "I'm would record as much as I can, Peace."

Peace: "And, as a matter of fact, we haven't been recording all that much; some of the time we were, some of the time we weren't, I guess. But in any case..."

Ann: "Were you recording ?"

Peace: " So, it has been a great joy being with all of you. It was nice to see you again, Barbara. Blessings on all you do for peace. Now, I don't know Dana as well, but certainly blessings on you too whatever you do for peace."

Webster Cotten: "Dana...Dana does her bit."

Peace: "I'm sure she does."

Webster Cotten: "She does."


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