Peace Pilgrim at Unity in New Port Ritchie, Fla., 1973

Part III

At the end to this section is a short radio interview done at WGUL in New Port Ritchie.

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[Continued from Part II]

Q: What does reincarnation mean to you?

It means that there are two sides of life, the embodied side and the unembodied side and that the divine nature wearing the self centered nature goes from side to side, once sloughing off the body and once wearing the body. It goes from side to side until all of the earth lessons are learned. Then after that the self centered nature is also sloughed off and it goes in pure spirit to the spiritual realm. This is what reincarnation means and of course most people in the world believe in this. But there are still some who believe there is only one side of life and that's the embodied side. I'm sure you're all acquainted with people who believe that the earth life is all there is and to them I talk about making it a good life you see, if they believe that's all there is.

Then there are those who believe that there is something else but that you first lie in the grave until something called judgement day. There are actually people who believe this, that you don't go directly over to the other side, that you first lie in the grave until judgement day and then you go over. Then there are those, most of the Christians, Muslims too and some Jewish people, not all, believe that you go to the other side. They do believe there is an unembodied side but they don't believe that you ever come back.

Then of course there are those who believe there are two sides of life - the embodied and the unembodied. The Mormons for instance believe that you go from plane #1 to plane #2 and then to plane #3. This isn't reincarnation and yet they believe there is both a before life and an after life. Then there are those, the vast majority of the people of the world are among them, who believe that you go from side to side and that's what reincarnation means.

Jesus said, "Who say they that I am?" and one said, "Some say you are Elijah come again." So they must have believed that Elijah could come again.

With our scientific methods, with like the regression methods, we're getting back to amazing things. The remembrance of a prior experience. We're doing that scientifically in some cases. So that's a little about reincarnation.

If you're interested in things like spiritual ongoingness I might say that I'm very very grateful that in my spiritual ongoingness I never attempted to buy spiritual truth. I have friends who have spent thousands of dollars trying to buy spiritual truth. Spiritual truth should never be sold and it need never be bought. As soon as you're ready it will be given. And if you're buying it you're trying to get it before you're ready for it and it won't do you any good anyhow. So save yourself some money. Don't attempt to buy spiritual truth. It will be given as soon as you're ready.

A young man, he walked with me to my hostess's house after some meeting and he was asking me some spiritual questions and then he told me he had just paid $75 to a group that said they would answer all his spiritual questions for $75. And he had a family who could get all their questions answered for $15O. And I said, "Why in the world are you asking me questions if you have this wonderful source of wisdom. And he said, "Well I'm just asking you a couple of questions that they couldn't answer." Many people get themselves into this.

In your spiritual ongoingness I hope you will never mistake the psychic for the spiritual. To many this is a common mistake. Many people mistake the psychic for the spiritual. The psychic comes with a great deal of phenomena and immature people are very interested in it. The spiritual is a very quite thing. It's a still small voice within. This inner knowing, you express this inner knowing but you're not grabbed and thrown down, these things don't happen in the spiritual. These are psychic things. There's a great deal of difference between psychic healing which is removal of symptoms, a temporary thing; and spiritual healing which is the removal of cause, a quiet thing. A great deal of difference. Many people mistake the psychic for the spiritual. This is unfortunate because don't forget, I'm sure all of you believe there is an unembodied side of life, when you get into the psychic all you're getting into is the unembodied side of life. They're people like we are and the more evolved are about their father's business. The less evolved are very anxious to make earth contacts. They will give any name in order to get your attention. If you're listening to voices that speak in your head or if you're trying to interpret visions of some kind, these are psychic things.

And I grant you, I have not had these things lately but in the very beginning of my pilgrimage or even before, there were a few of these things. Enough so that I can talk about them and I know what they are. But the interesting thing was that even though I did have a few visions you might call them, there was always the inner interpretation that came right along with them. I never ran around and said, "Say I had a dream, it was so and so, can you tell me what that means?" When somebody comes to me and asks me something like that I say forget it. If it were important you would know what it means. Forget it.

The psychic things are vague and you don't know exactly what they means. The spiritual things you know exactly what they mean. That receiving which comes through the spark of God within you, the indwelling Christ, the kingdom of God within. That receiving comes with complete clarity and understanding. You can explain it. You can discuss it. There's nothing unclear about it. You're sure of it. Remember they say about some people, "He spoke with authority." You know. It's not a believing, it's a knowing - a deep inner knowing. Pay attention to those things of course. No one can stop you from paying attention to those things when they come. But don't pay attention to these vague psychic receiving. Don't get into the psychic. Aim for the spiritual.

There are many devices that explain the life governed by the self centered nature. They operate at their level and you know many of these devices. I'm sure you've heard of them. There's many such devices. They operate at their level. Astrology, numerology, craniology, personology, palmistry, handwriting analysis. I could name a whole lot of them. They operate at their level but after all, are you interested really in explaining the life governed by the self centered nature or in transcending the life governed by the self centered nature. Which are you interested in, you see. I'm glad I never got involved in any of these devices because I've never met a person who was able to well explain the life governed by the self centered nature and later transcend. I've never met one. Now there may be some. It's not impossible but I've never met such a person. If you can explain it you stay with it.

Then another thing. Don't get sidetracked. You see in your spiritual ongoingness you will come to many places where there will be some phenomena. You might say these are the spiritual tests if you want to. First there are inklings of them and then they become very clear. At the time when they're very clear if you concentrate on them and do not commercialize on them, the only thing you keep if you commercialize on it is some contact with the lower psychic realms. They just don't care. In any case you concentrate on it and do not commercialize on it, you can retain it.

But look what happens. Off you go on this side track and you spend the rest of your life finding lost objects or whatever you're side tracked on. Frankly you shouldn't even find other people's lost objects. Those are problems that are set before them for their spiritual growth and why do you want to take away their opportunities to grow spiritually. You go through many of these. Finding lost objects. Knowing what people are thinking. Seeing past lives and seeing the unembodied side of life and maybe the devic realm and all kinds of experiences. The best thing is, don't let yourself get side tracked. Let yourself go right through the experience. You'll never lose it completely and go on to the next experience. This is another thing that commonly happens to people who want to walk the spiritual path and then get side tracked. Now I've opened up this subject because evidently some of you might be interested in this subject. So now we can talk about world peace, we can talk about inner peace, we can talk about anything you want to talk about.

Q: Could you tell us something about your spiritual evolution ...meditation every morning and evening...

It was 35 years ago when I started my spiritual growing up and 2O years ago when I finished it. At the time when I was a seeker, now I don't take the path you do, you see I have never had a living master, it's not necessary but some people progress

better that way. I mean it's whatever you choose as far as that's concerned. What ever seems right for you. I can tell you that in the orient they considered a living master necessary because they were using forcing techniques which are very dangerous, strenuous breathing exercises, strenuous meditation techniques. If you had a living master he would keep you from tearing yourself apart. But actually if you're not going to use any dangerous techniques why you don't need this and I never had this. Except that within me is the indwelling Christ which is my living master of course it isn't a person.

I used to walk receptive and silent amid the beauties of nature and these wonderful insights would come to me as I prayed the prayer of receptive silence which is sometimes called meditation. Now I got from this 4 things. From the beauty around me my inspiration, from the silent receptiveness my meditation and from the walking both my exercise and my breathing. Four things at once. And I would recommend a time apart or a time alone with God when hopefully you get all four of these things because these four things can beautifully be obtained at the same time.

Some people might prefer to sit still. Actually all you need is that you're unconscious of the body and I'm most unconscious of my body when I'm on my feet and walking. I'm not thinking of my body at all.My body is comfortable. I once saw some people meditating in what they could assume of a yogi posture. It wasn't perfect by any means but it was something like it, they had their feet crossed. I came into this Spanish type house, it was in California where the living room went up two floors and I came out of my bedroom onto the balcony looking down into the living room and there was this oval of people meditating, supposedly meditating, in this posture. And I could just feel, I saw them squirming a little and I could just feel what they were thinking. They were thinking, "Gee, my foot's asleep. I wonder how long this thing is going to last," and you knew they weren't getting anything because you have to be unconscious of your body. So I would say, be in a posture that is comfortable to you. If you can do what I used to do you will get the four things at once which will be beneficial in many directions.

Now after you have found harmony, any special time for seeking harmony is like getting out of a lake to take a bath. You just live in the harmony. So I don't have this any more. I don't make any special effort anymore to seek harmony. I just live in the harmony and this has been true for the last twenty years. But when I was a seeker in the 15 year preparation period I did have a time apart, a time alone with God and I do recommend this for all seekers. It doesn't have to be any special time but I do think that dawn is a beautiful time.

Are there any people here who love dawn? Goodness look at the dawn people. Let me say a good word about dawn. Sunset is lovely too. But usually at sunset people are awake and they're hurrying and scurrying around. Whereas at dawn most people are still asleep and they're much more harmonious when they're asleep. Try dawn. It's a beautiful time for your time alone with God.

Q: I realize we can't do anything for peace if we don't have a healthy body and I notice you're very healthy, very vivacious, and God bless you, but would comment on eating. I would appreciate that.

Oh yes. This is something we can all start with. You see there are always two ways of learning things. You either are willing to do the right thing of your own free will and accord or else you refrain from doing the right thing in which case the problems you create for yourself will push you into doing the right thing. As far as food is concerned I practice prevention. Everything that is said to be bad for your health I have cut out long ago. Why should I wait until I get sick. For instance I noted that my host and hostess, the Goodwins, were providing lovely bran muffins, whole grain, you see. White flour and white sugar, why that stuff doesn't even look like food to me. It won't nourish your body, that's for sure.

I don't use any high season. This has a spiritual reason too, because high seasons push you toward the lower. Irritating substances, all of them, even things like onions which are irritating substances, they all push you toward the lower instead of toward higher so I avoid all those high seasoning, irritating substances. I avoid them all.

Also, I stopped eating flesh and I stopped eating flesh - let me tell you why - I stopped eating flesh 3O years ago. Thirty years ago I stopped eating flesh. I have a rule of life that I will not ask anyone to do my dirty work for me. I would never kill the creature and therefore I refuse to eat the flesh of the creature. I doubt that you'd eat beef if you had to kill it. So there's another thing that may push us into becoming vegetarians whether we want to or not and that is the fact that as we increase in population it takes from 1O to 2O times as much land to feed the creature and eat the creature as it does to raise the vegetables and fruits and eat the vegetables and fruits. So just because land might get short we will be pushed into becoming vegetarians which is no problem for me because I already am a vegetarian and have been for 3O years.

So what do I eat? This morning for breakfast I had half a grapefruit and yesterday morning for breakfast I had an orange. Oh that was that lovely temple orange that you gave me Paul. A horny looking thing but it tasted delicious. Then for lunch I often eat fruit. I often eat nothing but fruit. Maybe fruit and cottage cheese or fruit and yogurt or fruit and nuts. Almonds are a complete protein. It varies. Often fruit or maybe I'll eat a salad with some nuts.

We're becoming a little health minded. Out of a period where people thought they could live on hot dogs, white bread, soda pop, you know, junk like that. Candy bars and all sorts of travesties. Out of a time when they thought they could live on things like that and they didn't live there very long and they didn't live very well. We're finally coming into the time when we realize that the body is the temple of the spirit and if we want to be able to use the body well for good work we'll need to treat it like a temple of the spirit and dump into things that actually will nourish it, will give it strength. As I say I have found that the things just the way God made them are the best. THe lovely fruits and vegetables and nuts.

Of course I take milk, buttermilk especially, yogurt, mild cheese, cottage cheese. Because remember my rule of life. I would milk a cow. I would gather eggs. However if I could and maybe if I had to supply my own food completely and was living in a place where I could do so I would even cut out the milk and eggs. I certainly would cut out honey. I don't even like honey. It's too sweet. Much too sweet. Concentrated. We'll see. Maybe someday I will cut them out too. Actually, obeying my rule of life, those things I can eat.

I don't eat many eggs because I don't like the way they treat chickens commercially. The way they raise them. Each one is in an individual cage. They stand on wire. Their feet are all crippled. They're electric lighted all night to make them lay more. This is horrible. And therefore I don't want to eat eggs.

Now cows, completely different. Of all the barn yard creatures the cow is treated the best. If you don't treat the cow well the cow dries up. If you want milk you have to treat the cow well. Milk literally comes from contented cows. There's no other way. So I don't have the qualms about that, that I do about the eggs. But if I told you about how the flesh animals are treated. I did mention that the man in Chicago entered a slaughter house and walked out a vegetarian. He said the lambs cry and sound like little babies.

Those of you who like veal cutlet, you know how they prepare that? Well the accepted way is, you need a nice white meat for that, so you take the calf from its mother and you put it into a dark basement in a crate. You don't give it any bedding because if you did it would eat the bedding. What you're going to feed it is slop which it wouldn't ordinarily eat. It develops anemia and then you kill it and the meat is beautifully white. Creamy and white for veal cutlets. Well didn't you know they kill all animals on the belt line except the beef animals because they're too big to handle. They hit them over the head. But the small animals are all killed that way. One back leg they lasso and take them across the belt and cut their throats.

These creatures - now some of you that have metaphysical knowledge - these are evolving souls. The animal nature is developing. Evolving souls that we're interfering with in this way. It isn't only the eight poisonous residues it leaves in the body. Even eggs leave three and that's another reason I don't care really for eggs. If you're interested in evolving souls, not the divine nature, the divine nature the animal doesn't have. It has guidance and instinct. But the animal nature is evolving.

There's all kinds of reasons for being interested in this. Now I don't expect you to become vegetarians overnight. Remember that. After all we haven't learned not to kill each other yet. How many are vegetarians here? Well there's a half a dozen who are vegetarians. A few of us have already become vegetarians.

Q: How about fish?

No, I don't eat fish either. You see I know it has a group soul. So do birds. Fowl and fish do have group souls. It's not quite as highly evolved as the animals but I personally would not kill a fish. I would not kill a chicken. Since I would not kill them, obeying my rule of life, I don't eat them. Now you do occasionally find people who call themselves vegetarians who eat fish. This is not a proper use of the word. If you eat any flesh you are not a vegetarian. But I would say if you just ate fish it would be better for your health because the poisonous residues are lower except that fish so often come from very contaminated water these days and therefore the residues may be even higher. Look at all the mercury they found in some of the fish. So you see all flesh is questionable.

A truck driver I was once riding with wanted to buy me something to eat. So he took me into a restaurant and I ordered a salad. He was wondering what to order and the waitress said to him, "How about a frankfurter?" and they were roasting on a spit. "Nope!" "How about a hamburger with all the fixings?" "Nope! Let me see one of our steaks," he said, and she brought it over. "Okay you can fry me that one." He didn't know fried things were bad for him. Then he said, "I guess you wonder why I'm so particular. I used to work in a slaughter house and you see I was walking along and I saw a florist dipping cow lilies into some red substance and they became pink. And I said 'Look at you gilding the lily.' And then he started talking to me about that. And he said, 'You know who buys this red stuff from me? The stuff is poison. You know who buys it from me? The local butcher. He tells me no matter how brown the meat is if he paints it with this it'll look red again so he can sell it. I'm a little worried about it because I know the stuff is poison and I'm just wondering if I should sell him any more.' And he said, 'Would you?' I said no, frankly if he wants to poison people I sure wouldn't sell him the poison. I think I'd tell him next time I don't have any to spare."

You see even if you're thinking in those terms, it's decomposing flesh and of course and naturally it's difficult to keep it safe. Of course. As I said I don't expect to make you vegetarians overnight. I just think it's good if you would think about this. Especially those who are interested in really great spiritual growth. I think it's good if you just think about it.

Q: About your fast - how did you start it and how did you complete it and what did you take in after the fast.

I had a 45 five day period of prayer and fasting. Remember that was the second year of my pilgrimage. I was not walking that year, that is not counting miles. I took three months out for it, the month and a half for the fast and the month and a half afterwards. In the very beginning of my pilgrimage I did still use both walking and fasting as a prayer discipline to keep me concentrated on the prayer. I pray without ceasing now, there's no need in the world for a prayer discipline but this was in the beginning. I was in someone's house in their guest room. I wasn't doing any extensive walking at that time although the rule of the fast is don't ever do anything which will be an exertion. Do things that are easy but if it will be an exertion don't do it. You're supposed to conserve your energy. So I didn't do extensive walking. I did some walking.

Now I went into the fast this way. I ate a grapefruit and two oranges the night before for my last meal. Actually I hadn't eaten all day and I had had some citrus fruit for breakfast so that's all I ate the day before was citrus fruit really. This is because I knew it would be well to have a cleansing substance in the system the very last thing. And I would say it would be good to go maybe, if you want to, two or three days on nothing but citrus fruit before you go into the fast and then you'll have this lovely cleansing substance in your body. I then took no food or water for three days. Now the reason for this is to stop the digestive juices quickly because of course as long as you take water they don't stop as quickly. So I didn't have any hunger pangs. My digestive juices were stopped just like that. Then I began taking pure water. Remember I said before, not that chemical cocktail from the faucet. Pure water.

I was 115 pounds when I started and I went down to 85 pounds so there was 3O pounds of reserve in my 115 pound body. Now I had to take off flesh. If you have to take off fat it comes off even quicker than that. I only took off 2/3 of a pound a day. Fat comes off quicker than that. When I broke my fast I took the juice of one freshly squeezed orange every hour the first day, sipping at first very slowly. I alternated the juice of two freshly squeezed oranges and the juice of one freshly squeezed grapefruit the second day every two hours. And the third day I took three meals consisting of a grapefruit and two oranges. That was the cleansing after the fast. Then I started eating other things but very gradually and only vegetarian food of course. It was a full week before I was eating full rations. So that would be it you see and the rule is don't exert yourself, don't overdue yourself while you're fasting.

Q: How old were you then?

I was already ageless because I had already found inner peace. ...This dear lady over here is my hostess and I'm so grateful to the Goodwins for giving me food and shelter. They took in a stranger. They had never met me before and it was just a joy to be with them.

Q: Could you tell us something about the prayer...(during the fast period)

I was very definitely praying for something at that time. This was way back and it hasn't fully materialized yet, I'm still praying for it. I was praying for a beginning for world disarmament. On a Sunday night I said I'm breaking my fast tomorrow and Monday morning in the paper was a picture of Eisenhower and Churchill. They had discussed world disarmament and of course this was back in 1954 and then the Vietnamese thing developed and it never was actually implemented but at that time they had discussed it.

Prayer is extremely important and if you want to understand prayer all you have to understand is that at every minute of our lives we are creating through thought. We are creating our inner condition and we are helping to create the conditions around us every minute of our lives. So this was merely concentrating my thoughts on this particular facet of the world situation. You know in general I walk in prayer for peace in the world. There's nothing that's too big to pray for and it all adds up. All good prayer has good effect. Doesn't matter if you see the results or not. It doesn't matter a bit. I may never see the results in my lifetime. That doesn't matter. I have seen amazing results in spite of the fact that I actually leave results in God's hands.

I have seen improvement in the world situation. I've come from the point where I felt like a voice crying in the wilderness to a point where I'm on the popular side. So there has been actually a great deal of improvement. Now do I take credit for that? Certainly not. Oh, my prayer has a part but many of us were praying together for things like this. It took a group effort. But I just set out to do my part.

Now the things I could see materialize as the results of my individual efforts were little things but I saw some. Letters that indicate people had been inspired to do something for peace in their way. Not my way, their way. They'll write to me and say, "Since talking with you I have written my congressman." This is fine. Very fine. "I have joined some peace group so I'll be able to work with a group." There's a peace group connected with most churches actually. And there are general peace groups too that I can recommend.

You see some people work best as a part of a group. They like to work with people. This is fine as long as you watch your group because, well you probably know the way of all organizations but I might mention it again. You form an organization to serve a good cause. You have the organization on your hands and first thing you know upkeep of the organization comes first and the cause second. Then the other thing - personalities become entrenched in the organization. Then first thing you know the personal ambitions come first and the organization second and the cause third. By that time it's about outlived its usefulness you see.

Let me also just finish the things that they do. They sometimes have joined the Peace Corps or the Vista program. Various things. They sometimes have gotten rid of worry habits. Bitterness they're harboring against someone. Many of them have made peace with a friend or a relation. A lady said, "Since talking with you I have resolved an unpeaceful situation between myself and my sister-in-law." A high school girl wrote and said, "Since talking with you I have made peace with my girl friend." This is fine. If we don't know how to get along with our friends and relations we sure don't know the way of peace in the world so we'd better start practicing right where we are. This is more than an answer to your question. I went from that into something else which was brought to mind.

Q: You said you are now praying without ceasing for inner peace.

No, for peace in the world. Inner peace I have.

Q: Okay, inner peace you have. At another time you said that you want to do God's will. I just want to know what you interpret to be God's will.

God's will is two things. It is obedience to God's laws. Now they're the same for all of us and we can study them together through our religious teachings. But it is also obedience to your part in the divine plan which is unique for every human soul and which is contained within your own divine nature. It has to be awakened. It has to come through an inner awakening. Now don't forget that the law can come to you from within. Your part in the divine plan must come to you from within. It is those two things. That's what I would call God's will. Obedience to the laws which are the same for all of us and obedience to your part in the divine plan which is unique for every human soul.

Q: What laws are you talking about?

Spiritual law. Now actually you have to obey the physical laws too. This is important. You would never get to the ground safely without a parachute if you stepped out of a tenth story window. The law of gravity would take care of that. You have to obey the physical laws and when we talk about food we were talking about obedience to the physical laws. But you also have to obey the spiritual laws. If you hate somebody you're likely to get an ulcer. So both the physical laws and the spiritual laws must to be obeyed.

I'd like to get this lady's question in, it's very pertinent to what we were talking about this morning. It was the question about a world language. I realize that in getting where we are to where we want to be there will be a great many steps that we'll have to take. The first things that we'll be able to do will be very gentle little things. For instance, we I think would be ready now to establish a peace department in our government. This will do research on peaceful ways of resolving conflict, which would be realistic research for this nuclear age in which we live. I think it would also deal with our national problems in connection with world disarmament and world peace. Like the adjustment of our economy to a peace time situation which of course needs to be consciously dealt with. And I would like to see it established with some fan fare. I would like to see us ask every other nation to establish a similar department and come and work with us for peace. In other words this would be a good example because remember in an immature world disarmament will come as a result of a series of agreements like the nuclear test ban agreement and hopefully a series of good examples. Now here comes the world language. This is another step that we are now ready to take. I would like to see us ask in the United Nations for the establishment of a world language to be taught as a second language. You see it wouldn't interfere with the language of the culture. You would learn of course the language of the culture at home and then when we got to school we would all start learning the second language. We would learn when we were very young so we could speak it fluently you see. And all the world business would be taken care of in the world language. But undoubtedly the national business would still be taken care of in the national language. And most people speak

two languages anyhow. They would all speak the same second language.

I imagine the United Nations would appoint a group of language experts from all over the world to decide what language it should be and give them a deadline, by such and such a time you will need to have decided what language you think would be the best language to use. Now there are many coined languages to choose from which include some from a great many languages. I don't know which one they would choose. I just hope it would be a simple language where one word means only one thing. Where the spelling is exact. Where the grammar is exact. Where it isn't he dog and she cat, of course the dog and the cat or whatever article they would be using. Where you don't have a formal and an informal but just one way of talking to people. In other words I hope it would be simple. English is simple in those last two I talked about but in other ways English is very difficult. I have no idea what language they would eventually choose but I definitely thing the establishment of a world language would be the biggest single step we could take toward world understanding and a very long stride toward world peace.

Q: My grandson in school tells me he gets time off to go to this other school here and he is learning a language that anyone could be able to understand. (It must be Esperanto?) I don't know.

Well they would all be able to understand each other if they have all learned that language. Of course not all people have learned Esperanto. There's been about a dozen devised since Esperanto, although Esperanto has some literature. It's done in old coin language so it even has some literature. I don't know what they will choose.

Q: We never had any trouble. We were the best of friends in the world until we went to France and learned their language and now we do nothing but fight.

I would say you couldn't argue because you didn't know one another's language. You would have argued if you had. As long as you have the propensity to argue why of course there is an unpeaceful situation. You use psychological violence. I remember a lot of things from world war I. For instance, I remember the Christmas time when the Germans and Americans were entrenched not very far apart and the Germans began to sing Christmas carols. And the Americans began to sing the Christmas carols with them. Take Silent Night. It would be different in German but the tune is the same and they began to sing together. Then after they sang Christmas carols together they began to actually come out and meet each other a little bit and there were some Americans that could speak German and there were some Germans who could speak English. They began to talk together a little and I understand they also began to go from one trench to another and play cards together and things like that. Then came the terrible order from both sides that they were supposed to start killing each other again after they had made friends.

Let me tell you another story from World War II. It just came to my mind. It's the story of a Jewish girl. I met her here but she was married when she was 16. Her first child was born when she was 17, the second when she was 18 and she was 19 when these things happened to her so you can see that she was still very, very young. She was married to a Jewish man and they lived with her parents. This was Germany under Hitler at the time of World War II. Now three things happened to this Jewish girl and they were terrible things. The first thing that happened to her, her home was destroyed and her parents were killed by an English bomb. She saw them. The second thing that happened to her, her husband was taken out and killed by the Nazis. At least she never heard from him again and she assumed he was dead. The third thing that happened to her, she was injured and she still carries the effects of that injury, and her two small children were killed by an American bomb. She saw them hit. Then in her injured condition she wandered round and round with the refugees. Of course I lived at that time. I remember the refugees. But these great tragedies that had come into her life really accelerated her spiritual growth so that as she walked round and round with the refugees she got to thinking, "They have injured and even destroyed our bodies, but they have injured their own souls and that is worse." And she was able to feel compassion and pray for all connected with the killings - the killed and the killers. And she was able to attain such a good attitude that she was finally befriended by German people who at the risk of their lives got her to England where she was befriended by English people and got to the United States. Now to me this represents the most wonderful victory of the spirit under the most difficult circumstances you could possibly imagine. But it also illustrates something else. Who or what was that woman's enemy? Was it the English who destroyed her home and killed her parents or the Germans who killed her husband? Or the Americans who killed her two small children and injured her? And to me the answer is clear. It was war that was her enemy and war that is the common enemy of all mankind and it's about time we were ganging up against our common enemy - war.

There's a story about World War II and I could also tell you a story about the Danish people in World War II. That was an interesting thing. You know if they way of non-violence and love is used it works. It works person to person, it works group to group, it works nation to nation. For instance it worked for Gandhi. He won independence from England without breaking diplomatic relations.

And it worked for the beginnings of our country with William Penn...They were told when they came into the new world they would simply be slaughtered. White men were killing Indians and Indians were on the war path. They were told to send in an army and kill off all the Indians in the area, build a fort and ....Christians! We couldn't possibly act like that. And they came completely unarmed into this situation were white men were killing Indians and Indians were on the war path. They treated the Indians fairly. They made friends with the Indians and it's on record in the state of Pennsylvania that not one white man was ever killed by an Indian while the Quaker influence lasted.

And the Danish used this during World War II against Hitler.

I met four of the Danish people who used it in Canada. Two couples, and I met one through the other and they all spoke German fluently and it had worked in this situation. When the Germans came into Denmark there were no shots fired. The Danish began a program of non-cooperation. For instance, when the Jewish people were ordered to wear black arm bands in Denmark, the next morning everybody, including the King of Denmark was wearing a black arm band. They never singled out the Jewish people for persecution. The Danish people protected them. By the way, Denmark was not devastated. It became a contributing country as soon as the war was over.

In France, for instance, when they saw the German soldiers patrolling they would kill the German soldier and the Germans would wipe out the entire block in retaliation. There was terrible devastation. But not in Denmark. They did a much subtler thing.

You've heard it said, haven't you, that the way to a man's heart is through his stomach? Well here were these German soldiers, living on emergency rations and this is what these four participated in. They would approach the German soldier, in his language, "As a representative of the Nazi government you have no right here, any more than we would have a right to be in your land. But you're also a young man far from home, maybe you're homesick, and if you as a fellow human being would like to take off your gun belt and come in and share our evening meal with us you are welcome." Well it usually didn't take more than one try. They would go in, take off their gun belts and sit down and eat with these people who could speak their language and make friends with them. Why some of them went home afterward, they thought, "What are we doing here." They were sending in their best indoctrinated Nazi youth and changing the army of occupation every few weeks. You couldn't keep them in there. We just have no idea of the power of the way of love. It reaches the good in the other fellow and he starts acting in a better way. This is the hope of the future, that we will learn to use the way of non-violence and love in all of our dealings.

Q: You mentioned you didn't like honey. Is it just that it's too sweet or I have heard that it's not pure.

Well it contains an irritating substance. When it's cooked I understand this irritating substance isn't so bad as when you're trying to eat it raw. It also is a .....sweetness, a much too concentrated sweetness. I can remember one of these health doctors, when this woman asked him about it, "Isn't honey a good food?" and he said, "Madam, honey is a good food for bees." He really had a caustic tongue. I can remember when they were complaining about not having any onions at the health resort and a woman said, "Now aren't onions a vegetable? After all onions are a food too, why don't we ever have onions?" And he looked at her and he said, "Madam, onions are not a food. They are a habit." When you have the onion habit you want everything flavored with onions you see.

I don't have the onion habit but I can remember what he said to me. I was there in 195O, that was before my pilgrimage. He looked at me and I was eating these organically grown vegetables and I couldn't figure out what was wrong with them. It was the first night I was there. He said, "What's the matter, don't they taste right to you?" and I said, "To be frank they sort of taste a little flat." And he said to me, "You have the salt habit." And you know it was true. In a week everything had a lovely taste but all I had been tasting was salt. He had raised a herd of cows without salt. He said they get the salt habit too and it's not necessary for them at all to have this salt and so he raised this herd of cows without salt and he got a prize for the cows, the milk got prizes. I can remember we were eating clabbored milk and cottage cheese made from the milk from that prize herd of cows.

You see there are a lot of things that are habits rather than necessary in our lives.

Q: What do you have against salt? Is salt detrimental?

If you have hardening of the arteries or something like that the doctor says, "Salt free diet" so you can survive a little longer. Well I would rather prevent hardening of the arteries by cutting it out voluntarily.

Q: Does it cause hardening of the arteries or does it retain fluids in the system?

It causes hardening of the arteries too. It does all these things. We had a family friend, of course it was pepper with him too. But we had a family friend and I was fascinated as a child at this man. He had big hands and he would pick up both the salt and the pepper shaker in one hand and while he was talking he would be going like this and I would look and I couldn't see the salt so much but I could see the pepper. And then he would eat this. But he only lived, he may have been around forty when he simply keeled right over in the street and died. They said afterward from all the salt the kidneys had been almost destroyed and the arteries were hardened. That was only at forty. That was from all that high seasoning he had been eating. Have you ever met people who have had hardening of the arteries? This is only one of the things that it causes that's true. But this is one thing that we know. Often when they have hardening of the arteries often their mind deteriorates. Their body is still ambling around but their mind is almost gone. I would rather prevent that and so I just abstain from the use of high seasoning. Personally you see, that's my personal choice.

Q: What about sea salt?

Well that wouldn't hurt you as much of course but I don't think you should even eat too much of that. I don't think you should eat too much food to be honest with you. Remember what were we talking about yesterday morning. Obviously we should eat to live. Not live to eat and we should know when to stop eating, just a moderate amount and that's it. Most people eat much too much food. They don't need that much food. For instance on my pilgrimage I have in most places no difficulty getting plenty of food. And my problem is not, "How can I possibly get enough to eat?" My problem is, "How can I graciously avoid getting too much to eat." That's my problem.

I'll never forget that woman down in Louisiana. You could see she was a huge feeder. I hoped she would serve family style so I could take what I wanted. But she didn't prefer it that way. She liked to serve you and I have never seen such big dinner plates. They looked like little platters. She would take that big dinner plate and very beautifully, she was very artistic, she would arrange your food. She knew I was a vegetarian, I had no problem with that, she would arrange this food very beautifully on the plate and then around the edges were all these side dishes with other little tidbits in it. I looked at it and I couldn't have eaten that much in a day let alone a meal. I think she may have been a little offended. It was hard for me to explain to her that I just could not eat that much food. So I had asked her for a small plate and then I would take just a little of each. My heavens the first day she ate all hers and turned around and ate everything I hadn't eaten. I was simply amazed. I don't have the capacity. I can't do it.

The next woman, when I came into New Orleans I found my hostess there also looked like a huge feeder so I sat down in the living room and explained to her that I couldn't eat so much food, that I'd just come from this other situation and I don't want to offend you but I just can't eat such a large quantity of food. I explained to her before we ever sat down to eat so then she let me take mine family style, as much as I could eat.

Q: Do you believe in an annual check up? Do you ever go to a doctor?

Never. I left well enough alone.

Q: What about a dentist?

A dentist? Well let's start with doctor's first. I have never had a doctor except in my school days I was examined. But the examination consisted of heart, looking down my throat and they tested my eyes and my ears. I guess that's it. I once had my blood pressure taken but that was when I was working in a health resort, they put a band around my arm. That's the extent of any examination I have ever had. And of course I haven't had one now for at least 2O years. In the 15 year period when I was working at the health resorts there were a couple of such little superficial examinations.

Now dentists. I didn't eat right when I was a child. White flour, white sugar, candy, trash like that. Even some people my age, I'm telling you, I came to the house of lady, she said she was feeling pretty bad because somebody had given her a box of chocolates and she had eaten it. She took advantage of it. Just because it was given to her she had to eat the whole box of chocolates. She said her husband didn't eat chocolate. He had better since probably. Anyway, some people are allergic to chocolate. I don't touch the stuff myself. My teeth therefore are far from perfect. Now, they have hardened up, they don't decay anymore but every once in awhile a filling falls out because fillings just have a certain life span and then out they come. So every once in awhile, I think I've lost three fillings I believe, on my pilgrimage in the last 2O years and had to have them replaced. The first time my host was a dentist. Of course, very simple. And the second time I was speaking to a rotary club and the man who invited me to the rotary club was a dentist. And the third time, oh I can remember that man. He came just walking up to me after my meeting and he said, "I'm a dentist. Do you need any dental work?" And I said, "Well I've just lost a filling if you've like to replace it." These things are beautifully taken care of. You don't have to think about these things. They're beautifully taken care of. Whenever you need these things there they are.

Q: Is there anything in the fruit you eat that's good for you?

Yes. Dates, raisins, figs, bananas. Just regular. Eat your bananas ripe. Don't try to eat green bananas. They're very bad for you. Remember when they're flecked with brown and have a golden hue. Do any of you remember Chiquita banana? Remember that cute little thing? (singing) "Bananas have to ripen in a certain way, when they are flecked with brown and have a golden hue, bananas taste the best and are the best for you. You can put them in a salad, you can put them in a pie, oh any way you want to eat them, it's impossible to beat them, but the bananas like the climate of a very very tropical equator, so you should never put bananas in the refrigerator." (applause) Now that dates us! The young ones don't know that. Anyhow bananas should be ripe.

This was a fun afternoon, something extra added. It's not a regular scheduled meeting, I don't do that at my regular scheduled meetings. Any how you should eat bananas when they're specked with brown and have a golden hue. And apples, never eat apples unless they're ripe. Green apples are almost poisonous to you. They make some people sick. My goodness,they pick most apples green and here there are as hard as little rocks. Of course they're not fit to eat. The only thing you can do if they're hard like that is to cook them, make apple sauce out of them or something like that because green apples aren't good for you. They should be soft when you bite into them if they're ripe. They pick all fruit green.

You know we're going to have to get back to raising our own fruit and vegetables. I can remember in some of my day dreams as I walk along, at that particular time I had been staying at the home of a town planner. He was planning new towns. So as I was walked along I thought of a practical new town. There would be a center and in that center would be a few stores and maybe the schools for the little children and there would be these things that you use all the time in the center there, and then a ring of houses would be around them. I mean several rings, several deep you know, but around them. Then on the outskirts would be the schools for the older children because they need lots of room to run around. It's only the real little ones that could be around a real small place. There would also be a recreation area for everybody, maybe a lake and something like that. But there would also be the factories and there would also be the fields. We would also raise our own food there and we would never be far from anybody. It would be just like a ring around this whole thing.

I told him about that and he was intrigued with the idea of a kind of round town with the things you use most often right in the middle and the other things in a ring around. Yes he was intrigued by that and I don't know if he ever drew one like that or not. But I believe we should come to the point where we raise our own things right outside of our towns. Then we can have ripe...

Q: I understand there are towns like that in Germany - the towns are in the center and the farms are all around.

Wonderful. I'm glad to hear about that. Maybe Europe is doing more pioneering in this direction than we are.

Q: It's not new over there I understand.

It isn't? Well you see for us it is sort of new because our towns just sort of grow up any old way. Good, I'm glad to hear that.

Q: Several weeks ago on the Amnity program there was that discussion and this governor of one of the eastern states wanted the money that was to be appropriated to his state for roads. He wanted it for town planning.

Isn't that good? I'm glad we're thinking about these things. That would permit us to have really good food because it would be growing right outside our town. I recognize that not every town can grow every food and if we want to eat every food we'd have to do some exchanging. But at least we could have apples ripe and we could have cantaloupes ripe. When you think of the way some of the food - they actually toughen it in order to be able to make it marketable so you can ship it.

For instance in Idaho I was staying across the street from a field of seed corn. This was to be a hybrid corn, I don't know if any of you are farmers but they planted one row of tender sweet corn and then they planted four rows of tough hided corn and then another row of tender sweet corn and then another four rows of tough hided corn. Then they de-tasseled the tough hided corn and they only kept the tassels on the sweet corn. What they were trying to do is put some sweetness into the tough hided corn. But there is this row of sweet tender corn and they had gone around to all the people in the neighborhood and asked them please not to raise any corn of their own because it might mix. They said just eat all the corn you want off, they called it the bull row. So that corn was so tender it just melted in your mouth and sweet as sugar. I have never tasted corn like that and all corn could be like that.

The way tomatoes used to be - they're not anymore - they used to be so delicious. And cantaloupes. I can remember sugar sweet cantaloupes we raised ourselves. They were so good and now they're tough rubbery things because those can be more easily shipped. It hasn't affected the watermelons because watermelons have a tough hide. It hasn't affected the oranges or the grapefruits. There's a few things that it hasn't affected. But most everything, they raise the toughest and hardest that they can and they pick it grass green so that it can be shipped and we never get the maximum fruits and vegetables and we won't until we start raising our own right outside of our towns as part of the town activity.

Q: Speaking of raisins, I've never seen them dried out in the sun but I was told by someone in California that she had seem them and she never cared to eat them after that. They were laid out and flies were all over them.

Well, that doesn't have to be though. They're usually dried inside and there aren't any flies. Nevertheless, raisins dry themselves in the sun. It's very interesting. You can pick a bunch of raisin grapes, you know the seedless white grapes, and by the way the white raisins are all bleached in sulphur. Don't buy them. Raisins from white grapes when they dry naturally turn brown, dark colored. But you can find on the same bunch, some grapes, some raisins that have already dried in the sun and the inbetween stage which is all fermented and you can't eat them. You can eat the raisins, you can eat the grapes, but you can't eat that inbetween stage when it's fermenting down before it dries. It tastes horrible. So they would dry themselves in the sun. I wouldn't be concerned about this because raisins are not dried out in the sun for the most part. Raisins are dried inside. Even if they're dried in the sun they're dried under a screen. The flies don't get at them. This was just some inefficient operation that she probably saw.

Q: What do you do? Don't you kill any flies or mosquitos?

Well, I don't have to, they don't bite me. I've been a vegetarian for so long. After you've been a vegetarian for seven years the mosquitos don't bite you, stinging knats do not bite you. They're only interested in flesh eaters. They don't bother me. Mosquitos will buzz around and they'll even walk on my skin but they don't bite me. They're not interested. If you start swatting at them they might bite you. It's a defensive mechanism with them. Well that might be an incentive for some of you to become vegetarians, but it takes seven years before your blood chemistry changes.

Q: Have you read the story of Hunsa Land? I heard a lecture from the man who went over there. They don't spray anything and they just live on vegetables and fruits. They had an experiment on the soil of Pakistan and theirs, where they don't use any dung of any kind because they don't have any animals. No insects attacked their growing things but the Pakistanis, what they were growing was full of insects. They don't eat eggs, they don't have milk, they don't have animals. Their wealth is apricots. This man said he never tasted fruit so good, so sweet because it's all tree ripened.

This is clean culture, what you're talking about. They sometimes use some kind of sod or mulch, but they use grasses and leaves.

Q: He said they put back into the soil what they take out.

That's right. In that clean culture soil, you don't get the plant diseases. You don't get the insects. They don't thrive in that soil. The earth worms do, but not the insects that destroy plants. I saw this in New England at this organic farm and just across the street was the neighbor's farm which was insect ridden and disease ridden. The theory of organic gardening is that the soil naturally contains 9 elements plus trace elements. Now if you just put back commercial fertilizers, you put back the nitrogen, the potassium and the phosphate. Sometimes a little bit of powdered lime stone, but in any case you don't put back all the elements. Therefore the plants are rather sickly. And of course plant diseases have as their function clearing away defective vegetable material. Just as animal diseases have as their function clearing away defective animal organisms. So you see if it is a healthy plant they don't try to clear it away. Therefore you just don't find the diseases, the insects, it's a very interesting thing and they don't have to spray. I'm all in favor of this of course, the organic gardening, I think this is the gardening of the future.

Q: They don't have any doctors, no dentists.

That's right, they practice prevention. Some of them do have some milk. Milk and cheese I understand. They have goats I guess. Maybe milk from some of those animals they use as beasts of burden to plow and so on. After all, if they're beef animals...

Q: They don't do any of that in Hunza Land.

Well I don't know. I understand the Hunzas do have some milk and cheese. That's what I understand. They eat this kind of yogurt or clabbored milk. But they have no flesh, they don't eat flesh at all. And I don't think they have any eggs, I don't think they raise chickens. The happy Hunzas and the healthy Hunzas. Did you see in the National Geographic, somebody was pointing it out to me, all these people who had lived to be way over a hundred. Well you can take any animal and multiply its physical maturity date by ten and you get its life span. Now we say that the human being matures physically, is able to reproduce its kind, at about age 12 on an average. Some earlier and some later, but on an average of age 12. You multiply that by 1O and you get 12O which should be the average life span of a human being.

And of course we do have one man, a black man down in Barstow, who has lived to be over 13O. I don't know exactly how old he is now but he was a slave for 9 years before slavery was abolished. Undoubtedly he's lived to be at least over 13O because they captured him when he was 12 years old and he was a slave for 9 years before he was freed. Then he stayed with the man who had bought him because he didn't know where else to go. But it was interesting the way they captured him. According to what I read, this man in a boat, apparently a black man too, just called him in and his friends in to come and eat as many fritters as they could. Those were pancakes with syrup, and while they were eating pancakes with syrup, that takes a little while you know, they were preparing them and the boys were eating them and meanwhile they got the boat out to sea and so when they came up the boat was out to sea and they couldn't get back to land anymore and then they took them to a big boat and brought them to the United States. He said he couldn't actually say anything about how cruel they were to the slaves because the one who bought him had been good to him and he had even stayed with him after he was freed. It's known that he must be over 13O because he was a slave for 9 years. That just shows that some do live to a fairly ripe old age occasionally and I think we all should.

Q: In all your wandering did you ever see a flying saucer?

Oh, I've seen a dozen unidentified flying objects in five sightings, yes. They were unidentified. I have never been able to find out what I saw, I just know I saw them and I had witnesses for half of them. For instance, one time I was sleeping in a lemon grove in California. My friends were campers and whenever I came there, they had a very small house, they would just give me a sleeping bag and I would sleep out in the lemon grove. I was lying there and looking up at the stars and all of a sudden when I looked overhead here was this orange colored or flame colored disk. Not quite as large as the moon but fairly large and it hovered there for awhile. Then all of a sudden it started to move and it moved toward the horizon and was gone. Then I looked back and here was another one - exactly the same position. There it was hovering and then it also disappeared behind the horizon. Now what did I see? I saw certainly unidentified flying objects didn't I? I didn't know what these were and nobody's been able to explain to me what these were. And so it was with the other objects that I saw. They were all different by the way. Somewhat different.

But this isn't hard for me to understand. When I was still a child and when they told me that some of those bodies that I saw moving around in the skies were actually planets like us I felt that there was surely life on some of those other planets. I believed this when I was a child and now that we have gotten to the moon, and we've gotten beyond mars and Russia has hit Venus, why if they had just a little more technical know how than we have, they would certainly be able to come here. So it is not at all difficult for me to believe that beings from other planets might be able to come here.

In fact there used to be quite a todo about this and I talked to a lot of people who claimed to have seen them and claimed even to have communicated with them. And I put together in my mind a kind of composite story and it went like this - I'm a reporter now, I'm merely reporting the composite story of what these people told me. There is a solar government with headquarters on Saturn. And as one of them put it, we are not included in that solar government for the same reason that animals are not included in the government of the United States. In other words we still kill each other, that we seem too immature to be included in the solar government. And I'm reporting still.

Now there was a strict ruling that no evolution might interfere with another evolution which remained enforced until the planet between Mars and Jupiter which one of them called Maldek, that was the same one that called the earth Shan which means planet of sorrows. But anyway this planet destroyed itself with nuclear devices and there's just the asteroids that you can still see circling between Mars and Jupiter, and some of the little particles have blown off to be the moon's various planets. Now he said when that happened then the ruling was amended to say that no evolution might interfere with another evolution unless the evolution showed signs of being able to destroy its planet and thereby affect the solar system.

Now he said they observed through the ages Ezekiel's Wheel, the Flaming Chariot, of course in Chicago back in the last century this huge, hovering whatever it was that was observed by thousands of people and there wasn't even any air ships of any kind at that time, and now when we've discovered nuclear energy and especially the hydrogen bomb they became interested and they began to come. They were observing and apparently concerned because with the hydrogen bomb, now again I'm reporting, they say is hydrogen and oxygen and if you explode a hydrogen bomb under the sea in the presence of flaming hydrogen that the oxygen could just fan the flames. You could get a situation which would just tear the earth apart. Now again reporting, you can argue this but not with me because I don't know enough technically about it. I'm just reporting it. But in any case they were especially concerned about the hydrogen bomb.

He said we have rendered harmless several nuclear devices, hydrogen devices, in your land and across the sea. So they came and observed and removed, well they became interested in us and they exceeded their authority to the extent that removed sufficient nuclear debris from the universe so that life on the earth could continue despite the nuclear explosions that we have had, life on earth could continue.

They also, and this the metaphysical ones will perhaps understand, removed sufficient negative vibrations to postpone cataclysm. So now there's the story of it if you're interested in that part of it. That's a composite. I've put together all the different ones who were especially interested in this were talking about. I put it all together and I was merely a reporter. That's why I say don't argue with me, I'm just reporting. Now some of this may seem far out to some of you of course, but some people are interested in this kind of thing so I thought it won't do any harm to report it. It's to some of you like reading a little science fiction story. And to some people you see a modicum of truth in all of this.

Okay, what else do we want to talk about? My goodness, I always think now we've discussed every possible subject and then low and behold some other subject comes up.

Q: What means of transportation do you like best? Do you like to fly or do you like to ride?

I like to walk. However I do like to fly but on my pilgrimage of course I wouldn't do any commercial flying being a penniless pilgrim. The only commercial flying I did was when I went to Nova Scotia I had to get over to New Foundland and I discovered that I couldn't get a boat in time for my speaking engagements and two people had mailed me return boat fare and as a result I had enough money to fly and I flew by a commercial airline at night I remember into New Foundland. Aside from that, and I've never been in a jet because that was a little too early for jets, it was 1957. Aside from that I have flown a number of times because my host had a plane. Just this last pilgrimage route. My host is Oscolusa, Iowa had a Mooney and he took off from a grass strip on his farm and took me over to Des Moines. In Laramie, Wyoming my host was a flight instructor and he had a Cesna and he took me from Laramie to Cheyenne. We flew over the Rockies and he circled around to show me the packed earth dams he had designed because the reservoir's up there for the city water supply. Each of them let me run the thing because they had a dual control. Why there's nothing to it. It's the easiest thing in the world. If you can drive a car and then you also have to tip it to bring it up and tip it to bring it down and that's all there is to it. It goes up and down as well as round and round. I mean just in the air. I didn't land it or take it off, believe me. But just in the air there's nothing to it. There's nothing you can run into or anything like that. I was too high for a telegraph pole. I enjoy flying and I enjoy the way the earth looks beneath you, like a miniature of what you've been used to seeing.

And I enjoy also riding along in a car. I have ridden a few times on a horse and I enjoyed that, especially I enjoyed going in a kind of cooperation with the horse, a living thing. I've also ridden on a motorcycle, I've ridden a bicycle. As a matter of fact, you know what a motor scooter is, you have to turn the handles to get it stopped you know and I came to this household and my hostess said, "I want you to talk to my teenage son. He's having terrific problems. But you won't be able to relate to him unless you get past his motor scooter because he will challenge you to ride his motor scooter and you have to think of a very good excuse or you won't be able to relate to him." So when he challenged me to ride his motor scooter I said, "Well, I can drive a car and I can ride a bicycle. If you show me how the thing works I think I could ride the motor scooter." So he showed me, I got on, I turned the handle bars, we went around the block, I came back and turned them the other way and stopped. At last he had great respect for me and we were able to relate beautifully. So I've even ridden a motor scooter.

Q: When you started out on your pilgrimage did you originally like go by bicycle and take a pack on your back with a sleeping bag and then decide it was too cumbersome?

No, no. I never did anything but walk. January 1st of 1953 was when my pilgrimage started. Now my thought for the pilgrimage came when I was visiting in New England so the first thing I had to do was hitch hike across the country to get to Los Angeles, because I knew my pilgrimage was to start from Los Angeles. I used the last few cents I had to buy a little piece of material for my first tunic and also a little bit of mimeographed paper and a stencil for my first messages. I started out and I didn't look much different that I look now. Now I look bulkier today than I did yesterday because this is unanswered mail. I just put it into my pockets. I had it at the Goodman's home you see, the unanswered mail and that's why I didn't look quite as bulky yesterday. I have around, yes I know exactly, I have 28 more letters to answer and then I'll be through with my letters for this week. That's not bad. I have four more days and if I do 7 a day I'll have it all answered before I pick up more mail on Saturday. It's not bad. Aside from that I have always carried a few copies of my message and I have some in my pockets now. A few copies of my message, and I have always carried a list of names of people that want my newsletter and I have such a list in my pocket now too. Then I have always carried a map of the area I'm walking through and here's my map of Florida.

Then I've always carried just a few little personal possessions that I use every day. Besides my clothes, my personal possessions consist of a comb and a folding tooth brush and a ball point pin. I use them every day and therefore of course I carry them. Now remember need level. I would not perish if these things were destroyed. I would be able to survive without these things. They're just handy because I use them everyday.

Suppose we think about what need is. Physical needs. There are needs beyond the physical but let's just think about what physical need is. Well you would need pure air, pure water. And neither one of them is available in some places in this rich country - neither pure air nor pure water. So lives are being impaired because of impure air and impure water being taken in. Now you also need nourishing food and you can usually find it if you know how to choose it. Then you need some kind of simple shelter from the elements. In most parts of the country you do. Then you need, up north where it's cold, warmth. Warm fire, warm clothes, warm blankets. And sometimes where it gets real hot, especially in the desert, you need coolness. At least shade. If you try to stay in the sun you'd probably perish. Then you need sunshine, exercise, most people don't get enough of that. Then rest, sleep at the end of the day. And those are your physical needs. See how simple your physical needs are.

So I have already brought my life down to need level because 15 years before I had taken my vow of simplicity, I shall not accept more than I need while others in the world have less than they need. And I have brought my life down to need level for me. Most of the needs beyond the physical are free. You can get lots of inspiration from nature, you see. All these beautiful things are really free, most of them. Even if you want good food for thought, there's plenty of libraries. A lot of the needs beyond the physical are free. Music, beautiful music is even available if you want to be uplifted with beautiful music you can have some kind of a little radio set and tune it in usually on FM and get some lovely music.

I took my vow of faith when I started. I shall remain a wanderer until mankind has learned the way of peace, walking until I am given shelter and fasting until I am given food. And therefore since I was stepping out on faith, I didn't take anything with me except just these simple little things that I use every day. So I never had a pack. And I never rode on a bicycle. But I looked just about like this when I started out. Just about the same. And I was supplied with food and shelter and everything I needed without asking. I didn't ask for it, it was given.

Q: Do you wear the same outfit summer and winter?

Correct. Also indoors and out. My body has adjusted beautifully to changes in temperature. And considering that I walk with the seasons, north in the summer and south in the winter, why I wear exactly the same outfit constantly and my body adjusts to the changes in temperature that I encounter. This is one of the fringe benefits of the pilgrimage. Another benefit, the walking has so increased my lung capacity that I can now speak in a large auditorium without a microphone.

Q: You have only one uniform?

Yes, I have only one uniform or pilgrimage garment.

Q: What do you wear when you clean that?

Well, if you want to be extremely technical, you see everything except underneath, I pull out a little sun suit, I swim in it. Now if I want to I could wear the little sun suit that I swim in while I wash the outer garments and the outer garments while I wash that. So there's just no problem whatsoever. You see we make such terrific problems out of things. It's the strangest thing. I have no trouble washing my clothes. If I'm at someone's house - even when I'm with total strangers, I'm in someone's house about three quarters of the time and so I wash my clothes about the same as you wash your clothes and as I said I don't even need a house coat or anything like that. I simply wear this little sun suit while I wash the outer garment. So now you know.

Q: When you decided to start your pilgrimage you undoubtedly had material things. Did you just give everything away?

Well I had already done that. The first five years of my dedicated life between 35 years ago and about 3O years ago, I used up or gave away what money and things I had. I gave practically everything away. I sold my car after five years and I also sold one other thing, they offered me the money for it, it was my beautiful bedroom suite. I sold it for only a hundred dollars because that's what they offered and I knew they probably couldn't afford more than that but they could afford that and I just let them have it.

But aside from that I gave things away. I had beautiful evening dresses I gave to young girls who couldn't have afforded them. All this represents somebody's labor and therefore I didn't just throw it away. I gave it where it could be of some use. I can remember I had one dress, it was kind of a suit dress, white with a lot of blue embroidery and a lot of other colors too in the embroidery and a big blue floppy hat and blue gauntlet gloves. I know you can't imagine me in that now but I used to be considered the best dressed woman in town and things like that. I had bought that to wear to a wedding and I had worn it exactly once to that wedding. I gave it to a young girl and why that became her best dress. I gave her the whole outfit, the hat, the gloves, the whole works. I found homes for these things.

And then there were a few things I kept because they were practical. For instance, I still wore this navy blue suit through the whole 15 years because it looked practical and durable and so it lasted. So there were some things I just wore up. Now when my money was gone I started to earn my way at need level. So I discovered all I needed to live on was ten dollars a week. Now I'll try to take an instance where I was living in a town, I think it was bigger than Newport but I had a room, fourth floor rear, small room. Three fifty a week. The landlady supplied everything, even french towels and bed linens once a week. It cost me about 75 cents a day to eat. By that time I was a vegetarian and it's much cheaper to feed a vegetarian than a flesh eater. That's another argument for vegetarianism. So I had about a dollar and a quarter left every week for expenses. That's how I lived in that 15 year period. It didn't take me long to earn ten dollars in that particular town. I remember I just did a little typing. You see I learned to type in high school and you can earn money if you can do a little typing. I got a medal for typing in high school - 9O words a minute, so you see I could do fairly well on a type writer. Then I gave the rest of my time to being of service in any way that I could.

Q: What really started this great dedication. There's got to be some incident, something equivalent to a girl going into a nunnery or something. There has to be something that triggers this all off.

All right, I'll tell you why I started. Now remember I started the dedication 15 years before the pilgrimage. What happened was that I had money, I had things, I was considered successful. But I wasn't happy. This was a growing realization, yes, I could get more money, but if a little didn't make me happy why would any more make me happy. I realized I had to find a meaningful way of life. So there was a night when I just walked all night through the woods and at the end of that night I just felt that I had finally found a meaningful way of life. I felt completely willing without any reservations to give my life and I started to live to give instead of to get. It was as simple as that. And my life just blossomed out. In this world you are given as you give and the most important thing you can have is a path of service. You couldn't possibly attain spiritual growth without a path of service. These people who are just attempting to attain inner peace for themselves aren't going to attain it. The way you attain inner peace is to start serving. At least get immersed in a cause larger than yourself so you can lose yourself you see. That's why I was able to do this. Because I just concentrated on the giving and the receiving just started. First thing that came - the blessing of good health. Then I knew what my life work was going to be. One blessing after another. And after 15 years the greater blessing of inner peace. In this world you are given as you give and if we knew that we would be vying with one another to serve, to give, because that's the only way to receive spiritual blessings. So that's what happened to me.

Q: Can you give as well silently and with prayer as well as working out?

Oh you can certainly work in that way , yes. If you do, but many who say they do this, it's just a kind of excuse for not doing anything else. If you really do this, if you really concentrate on this, you can serve in this way of course.

Q: There are times that you give out and then there are times that you have to build up or whatever.

If you have found inner peace you don't need to be refreshed or renewed. Then you see you have the constant source of supply. Before you have found inner peace, yes. There would be times when you would have to be replenished. That's why we have retreats and so on. But then, you know what happened to me on my pilgrimage. I had been on the giving side, now all of a sudden I was learning to receive. Because you see in order to give the other fellow the joy of giving you have to receive just as gracefully as you give. So that was my lesson at the beginning of my pilgrimage.

Q: Don't you think serving is prayer? Serving is prayer.

Yes. I agree with you. And I agree with Kahil Gabran who said work is love made visible. All of this is a kind of a prayer. You know you can get into these things in various ways. I know a woman who happens to very much love Jesus. And she cooks every meal as tough Jesus were to be her guest. Just as carefully as though she were going to serve this one that she loves. And I also have met, a rather young woman, she says that she always cooks every meal as though, this particular man in India, he's dead now, were to be her guest. I'm trying to think of his name. No it wasn't Gandhi. He was considered a master, he was a Sikh. I slept with his hand in plaster over my head. They took a cast of his hand and put it on an oval plaque, and this was over the bed in the guest room. It didn't bother me any.

Sometimes if there is a spiritual one that you love very much, if you do all the work as though you were doing it for him, as though he were going to be your guest, it makes the work easier for you because then you really do it lovingly. I suppose we should so much love our families that we would do it lovingly for them too. But I like that idea that work is love made visible. That every service is a prayer. This whole thing is bound together, very definitely bound together.

Q: Are you aware of the work of Brother Andre?

No. Is he a Catholic brother?

Q: Yes. He was from the French provincial area of Montreal. The large temple there, the pilgrimage of St. Joseph.

Was he the one that built that cathedral or whatever it is to St. Joseph?

Q: It's to St. Joseph, yes.

Yes, I was up there. I know who you mean now. In fact there are some very interesting stories connected with him, that they told me when I was there. Are you from Montreal?

Q: No, we were there last summer and we journeyed through this beautiful temple, you might call it a church. The Cathedral of St. Joseph. They have a tape on this that we purchased there. It's very beautiful. Each of the steps - The tomb is right in the Cathedral.

You're right. I saw it too, and I also saw St. Ann's where all the crutches and things are hanging up. Yes I visited Canada fairly thoroughly, as thoroughly as I could. I enjoyed Canada.

There have been many beautiful souls and all of them have made their contribution. God bless them all.

Before I leave you, in a very traditional way will you join me in a prayer for peace. Let us now feel that we are lifting our poor, war weary world to God. Let's just feel we're lifting it to God. Let's pray for our world. Let's pray to God: Oh wonderful spirit of gentleness, touch, calm and embolden us and all men. Take from our frightened hands the bomb and the bayonet. Arm us with faith instead. Arm us with wisdom and love so that wherever we walk in whatsoever land, life will enter and not death. This we know is the will of the prince of peace. Amen. Now let's leave our world in God's hands, knowing that God will have his perfect way with our world. And this is my parting wish for you. May you so live that all who meet you will be strengthened. That all who bless you will be blessed. That all who serve you will be prospered. And if any should seek to harm you, may they contact your thought and be healed. God bless you, I've enjoyed being with you.

Q: If you would get in the center of our circle we have kind of a customary blessing in Unity. It contains in it al of the light and the love we feel for you. Most of us know it so we'll surround you now. Each of us now surround Peace with our own life force. See her encircled now with the presence. Let's say now for Peace our Unity blessing: The light of God surrounds you. The love of God enfolds you. The power of God protects you. The presence of God watches over you. Wherever you are God is and all is well. So be it.


(Peace on radio broadcast The Open Line, WGUL, Newport Ritchie, Florida.):


Commentator: First let me describe you to our audience since they can't see you. I don't know, I was going to make a guess of your age but I don't dare do that presently. That beautiful silver hair and as vibrant as anyone I've ever met. But obviously over 45. I believe you told me that when you began walking 2O years ago that you're hair had turned to grey at that time.

Oh yes,.....(standard message) ...Everything has been supplied. Not three squares and a fine bed every night but I'm no longer a slave to comfort and convenience. I have received sufficient food, sufficient shelter, a new item of clothing when needful. Do you know I have even - although I certainly haven't asked for it - received sufficient funds through the mail, because I don't accept money if you try to give it to me, but through the mail I have received sufficient funds to even publish some literature which I send free of charge to anybody who would like to have it. If your not interested in the stuff you seem to attract it.

(On the peace movement) I will say that the same conflict that exists elsewhere exists also in the peace movement - between those who believe you can overcome evil with more evil and those who believe you can only overcome evil with good. Or putting it in philosophical terms, between those who believe that the end justifies the means, and those who believe, as of course I do, that the means shape the end. The means determine the end, and only a good means will ever accomplish any good end. You do have this kind of a conflict, no one has ever been killed or seriously injured by a peace demonstrator, but there has been a little psychological violence. Name calling for instance. You know this is such poor psychology. For instance calling police pigs. Why people react according to the influences that are brought to bear upon them. And if you call a person a pig he's apt to act like a pig. This is terrible psychology, you see, if nothing else. I couldn't do it anyhow because it's certainly out of harmony with all religious teachings. Then there's been a little violence against property. You know in this materialistic age, any violence against property turns thousands of people away from the peace movement so this is also extremely poor psychology. Now this hasn't been the rule, this has been the exception. Most of the peace movement has been peaceful. Therefore finally peace has come and I credit not the government but the people of this country, with having finally brought the hostilities in Viet Nam to a close.

Q: I'd like to ask Mrs. Peace Pilgrim about the America thing and what your doing about peace is right but the Communists, the sides of Russia and Red China don't always abide by this and the Geneva Convention, they were the ones to break it. It's Communist infiltration that makes us fight for freedom. If you were living in a Communist country you wouldn't have it. The only reason we have freedom right now is because men fought and died for it. So war does have its place and it is good to promote freedom from communism.

You sound like a very young man. I think life will probably teach you much but let's talk about communism because you mentioned it. Now in the first place let's not define it as the dictionary does. But let's say it's as diabolical as anybody could possibly think it is and let's still deal with it realistically. In the first place, do not fear it. Because that which you fear you give tremendous power and you actually attract it. That which I feared came upon me. I do not fear it for one moment.

In the second place, it will fade away eventually. Anything which is out of harmony with God's will fade away. But if you want it to fade away more quickly then bring good influences to bear upon it and try to inspire your own country to bring good influences to bear upon it.

And in the third place and this is by far the most important, the stated philosophy of the American Communist Party is, the end justifies the means. At least it was a few years back. The end justifies the means. For heavens sake, do not adopt their philosophy. If you do you're already in their camp. This is the mistake the extreme right makes. The extreme right adopts the extreme left philosophy of the end justifies the means. Now I would never adopt their philosophy. They could never take me over. I believe that the means determine the end and therefore I only use a good means to accomplish a good end. So that's a few rational things that we might say about this bugaboo communism. Thank you for calling.

Q: I don't fear communism because the American people and the weapons we have are stronger.

Yes, you believe though in their philosophy apparently of the end justifies the means. You told me that war was right, that killing was right.

Q: Cases, the Revolutionary War, World War I and II...

That is the end justifies the means, you see. And if you believe in that philosophically you're in their camp. You see what I mean? This is where we have made our big mistake. Philosophically we're in their camp. I'm not. I don't know if you'd consider yourself a Christian or if you ever even thought in those terms. But Jesus told how to deal with these things. I myself am a religious woman. I can't even fully call myself a Christian, I've never belonged to any particular denomination. But I note where Jesus said, "Be not overcome of evil but overcome evil with good." Now this is what we need to learn, to overcome evil with good if we want to overcome it. Otherwise we will just continue multiplying it. He also said, and I abide by this, "Love your enemies. Bless them that curse you. Do good to them that hate you, and pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you." Therefore we should be praying for the transformation of people that we believe are out of harmony. This should be our attitude for them.

Moderator: Peace Pilgrim has walked over 25,OOO miles in the United States over the past 2O years in a pilgrimage for peace. I'm not sure if we say pilgrimage rather than a crusade. Would you explain the difference.

A crusade is an attempt to force something on people. It involves at least psychological violence and historically it's involved even physical violence. A pilgrimage is prayer and example. It's a gentle journey, a pilgrimage and that's what I walk.

Q: This is Reverend Elwood Pagans and I most certainly want to say amen, God bless you, and thank you for standing up and speaking up and speaking the truth. So few know the truth today. They seem to think that all they have to do is to holler war and they throw away all form of Christianity and get into it full blast. And I'm so glad that we've got one person that I've heard that I know that is speaking the truth and may God bless you.

Thank you, thank you sir.

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